Anonymous vs. Scientology

[Fury]

Interesting. I wonder if they're all Roman Catholic, or if we start running into Old Catholic, Orthodox Catholic, Polish National Catholic, or all of the other Independent Catholic churches that have been running around since the Second Laterean set off its own minor schism with the "Papal Infallibility" schtick.

The map doesn't really relate to our discussion, i just found it interesting. I think the catholic is more or less a representation of catholicisim consolidated, I'm sure it varies by region/church etc.

[Mistral]

your statement is contradictory, you say that everyone is entitled to their own opinion or belief, but you counter by saying our country is founded on god. What does that imply for people who dont believe in god such as myself? Am i not entitled to the benefits of the first ammendment, or is that reserved for people who believe what you believe as well. Furthermore, most of the founding fathers were NOT creationists, they were profiteers (successful ones might I add). As far as morals and values go; its not up to a church or government to decide my morals and values. They are not universal, they are individual. As an existentialist, i believe that everyone holds their own truth, morals and values, they aren't to be dictated by a religion, or anyone else for that matter. I could debate this all day with you and we'll get nowhere, you believe as you do, and i'll continue not to.

Ah, careful about throwing the names of the Founding Fathers around so cavalierly. You may not be so pleased about how they were actually Christian Deists by and large, and would in fact have significant concord with modern moderate creationists and evolutionary deism. Just thought you'd like to know.

[Fury]

Ah, careful about throwing the names of the Founding Fathers around so cavalierly. You may not be so pleased about how they were actually Christian Deists by and large, and would in fact have significant concord with modern moderate creationists and evolutionary deism. Just thought you'd like to know.

You'll note that i threw out no specific names, some of our founding fathers were christian, but yes, by and large they were mainly deists, I actually did know this. But there were a few outright athiests, ben franklin, and thomas jefferson for one. What I'm saying is our country definately built in large part by christians, but its not a country for christians exclusively, thats what the first ammendment was supposed to adress, in the separation clause. I however am ejoying this discussion, it has been productive.

[Anonymous]

Well, this country was founded on God, and I think it should stick that way. It's never hurt anyone until now, that everyone seems to have the right to complain and get what they want. It seems everyone's abusing their power here in the US and slowly and subtly, it's being taken away.
Maybe it's not the right religion, who knows, but it's morals and beliefs are good for a country. Everyone's entitles to their own opinion and belief, but I think it's kind of dumb when they then try to force it or take it away from others. Something that was once fine.
Just doesn't make sense to me.

On the contrary, this country was founded on not forcing people to believe in anything if they didn't want to. That's why the pilgrims left England, they were tired of being forced to follow the Church of England.

[Dr Mario]

What are you talking about? The catholic church in the united states is basically child molesters inc. Not to mention the Catholic league is one of the most devisive forces among evangelicals in the United states. And believe me the Catholic church has way more money and pull than the church of scientology. Are you kidding me? The church of scientology is nowhere close in blood either. The crusades, the spanish inquisition, the european witch hunts, the salem witch hunts, the continuing violence in Ireland. I'm gonna have to put the Catholic church way above the church of scientology. As far as the goverment goes, the christian and catholic denominations haven't just infiltrated the government, they are the government essentially. Look at our president for instance, christian fundamentalist leader. The church of scientology is bad, but they're a small blip on the radar compared to the "major players" in world religion.

Did you even fucking read what I typed?I said, quote "at least as far as modern USA goes, more blood on it's hands than the Catholic Church." Read: Modern. USA. Not the fucking middle ages. Not fucking continental Europe. Truth is, the Catholic Church as an organisation hasn't directly killed anyone in the US for quite some time. The same can't be said of the Scientologists.

On the subject of the fundies, we were quite specifically discussing the movement as a whole. They have the swing votes in the Republican party, but have been losing ground for some time internally and are nowhere near the dominant force they were during Reagans time or even Bush's first term. Sure they're dumbfuck bastards, but their power is on the wane and probably will remain so for the next 4-12 years.

Scientology? Not on the wane. And therein lies the difference.

[Fury]

Momentum is quite irrelevant, The catholic churh may be waning in influence, but Judeochristianity has alot more power over this country than scientology could dream of. The idea of scientology infiltrating the government is quite laughable, considering our government is controlled by the christians right now. I'd say on my threatdown the Judeochristian(including catholics) movement as a whole, is way more dangerous than scientology.

[Dr Mario]

The idea of scientology infiltrating the government is quite laughable

Look up Operation Snow White, their use of front political candidates in Germany and their known bribery of civil servants in multiple countries. They haven't exactly changed their tactics over the years.

[Fury]

Look up Operation Snow White, their use of front political candidates in Germany and their known bribery of civil servants in multiple countries. They haven't exactly changed their tactics over the years.

Ooh, you mean the idea of a private entity, business,corporation , non profit organization, religion, activist group, lobyists, etc getting their representitives elected to certain governments? Or even more frigtening bribing government officials you say?!Thats just so unprecedented! Oh noes! How did the church of scientology think that one up? They're so diabolical!

[Dr Mario]

Ooh, you mean the idea of a private entity, business,corporation , non profit organization, religion, activist group, lobyists, etc getting their representitives elected to certain governments? Or even more frigtening bribing government officials you say?!Thats just so unprecedented! Oh noes! How did the church of scientology think that one up? They're so diabolical!

How about you actually read up on what they did and then get back to me? Because those aren't the actions I'm talking about.

[Fury]

Eleven highly-placed Church executives, including Mary Sue Hubbard (wife of founder L. Ron Hubbard and second-in-command of the organization), pleaded guilty or were convicted in federal court of obstructing justice, burglary of government offices, and theft of documents and government property. The case was United States vs. Mary Sue Hubbard et al., 493 F. Supp. 209 (D.D.C. 1979).[3][4][5][6]

ooh theft of government documents and supposed plans, i dont know, sounds far reaching, but also ineffective, I'm still not very worried. I dont deny what they do is bad, but this idea of them being any bigger threat than any other religion is still highly laughable.

[Dr Mario]

I dont deny what they do is bad, but this idea of them being any bigger threat than any other religion is still highly laughable.

Right. Now show where I ever said that they were currently a bigger threat than any other religion?

[Fury]

to be quite honest all i remember is somebody said it, maybe it wasn't you I'm too tired to go look who said it. sorry to ensue, that you implied that. I think we've pushed this one to the hilt. We fundamentally agree the church of scientology is bad, the degree is obviously where we disagree. The point i was trying to make is religion in general is the problem, not just scientology.

[Dr Mario]

Yeah, this is bad communication. I don't think any religion, organised or not, is a good thing at its base. I just think that, in this case, it would be a more efficient use of effort to stamp out a growing cult before it can legitimise itself in the public sphere (and while the crimes are fresh people will actually give a fuck. Once the shock passes they're remarkably good at writing off events that didn't happen to them or their ancestors) the way older religions have, rather than push harder on an established but receeding group.

[Fury]

Pick a cult, any cult. But a huge sigh of relief to mitt romney dropping out, Him and Huckabee terrify me. I think an all out assault on organized religion in this country would be more worthwhile than a fight against scientology alone. They're no worse than any other religion. And history has proven, the more you try to suppress a religion, the more it grows, IE, christianity.

EDIT: I hope the nsa sees this one.

[Dr Mario]

Pick a cult, any cult. But a huge sigh of relief to mitt romney dropping out, Him and Huckabee terrify me. I think an all out assault on organized religion in this country would be more worthwhile than a fight against scientology alone. They're no worse than any other religion. And history has proven, the more you try to suppress a religion, the more it grows, IE, christianity.

I'd rather have seen Huckabee go than Romney. Odds are that the remaining one could snag the VP spot alongside McCain and the Mormons are a much smaller voting block than the evangelicals in general. Both groups have reservations about voting for each other, so from my point of view it would have been preferable to have the bastard with the smaller group backing him remain in the fray.

I'd like to see a removal of organised religion, but lets face it: The main religions are ingrained deep in society and any pull against that is going to be a gradual turn away from it rather than a mass apostasy. Scientology (and fringe religions in general) don't get recognised as legitimate religions and thus don't really get the same kind of mental lattitude that Christianity, Judaism or even Hinduism and Buddhism get. So a more aggressive approach is possible without necessarily letting up on the fundamentalist branches of Christianity. With a bit of pressure, they may never achieve that level of apparent legitimacy, and as long as that is the case their cause remains far weaker.

Course, not all repressed religions grow in conjunction with their oppression. Most of them get stamped out and those that survive the repression generally don't become significant in numbers until after the pressure is off but the surviving ones are very, very good at presenting a heroic history for themselves.