True enough. A lot of people have trouble reconciling "God wants his Word spread" with "God apparently didn't care enough to proofread the damn thing" though.Originally Posted by Evans
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True enough. A lot of people have trouble reconciling "God wants his Word spread" with "God apparently didn't care enough to proofread the damn thing" though.
Gravy!
When it comes to bibles.
Theres various types. Buy the King James ones. Not new king james, NIV (New Internaional version) or anything else.
The miss out passages in some of thebibles which is sad.
Buy King James XDDD
I won't say anymore <3
The Maddest Villain
'sup?
SupermarketZombie
I feel no reason to place trust in something that is that inconsistent.
~
How do you deal with people?
Fear and Loathing
Bullshit.
The King James version is an outdated, politically motivated translation created by people with access to far fewer manuscripts than the later translators had to work with.
It does not contain passages that are missing from the other translations (and really, all Protestant bibles are missing entire books from the original established Canon if you want to get technical).
Last edited by Dr Mario; 19th-August-2007 at 04:46.
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Ok, so get the Jewish one. It's like the first five books from Christian bibles, plus the Hebrew alphabet adds a lot to the meaning. In the beginning there was the word and the word was |13| God, love, light, eternity.... so many words in Hebrew are 13, and the word was 13.
note: Almost every number of import in Jewish Mysticism and Hebrew was made taboo by the Christians. 13 is the number of God, and 666 was used in a Jewish ritual to commune with Angels.
Also, look into the Apocrypha, if you must do the Christian thing. These are the books that the Church suppressed because they were deemed threatening to authority and tradition. One theme is that Adam had a wife before Eve named Lillith, who was made in the same way as Adam and not from his rib, as was the submissive and subservient Eve. She was cast out before Eve was created because she demanded equality and to be on top during sex.
These books of the Apocrypha also serve as the basis for the current Gnostic movement, emphasizing a personal relationship with the Creator. Like Jesus said, your body is your temple. Like the 10 Commandments said, Worship no graven image(crucifix), or man(Jesus, Virgin Mary), or House(Vatican, local Church). Like the engraving at the Oracle at Delphi says, Know Thyself, Nothing More.
Gnosticism is also the name currently used for the religious movement from Judaism leading into early Christianity.
Personally, I'm somewhat of a mix between Gnosticism, Annishinaabeg, and Taoism.
EDIT: Christian doctrine refutes the rediscovered Apocrypha, saying that it was Gods Will that they were lost, and that they should stay lost. lol That says to me that it must have been God's Will that they were found again now. The same people believe that God's intelligence is so limited that God couldn't have created a dynamic system in which things would change and grow to become more than they are. They call this misconception Intelligent Design. What a flawed and limited God they have. I pity them.
Last edited by skullpoker; 19th-August-2007 at 05:35.
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You're a long, long way out there.
First off, 666 is in no way connected to Jewish mysticism. It shows up twice in the Tanakh, both times in non-religious contexts.
13 is slightly more related to Jewish mysticism, as the Torah claims God to have 13 attributes of mercy. It's still not a common thing in Jewish mysticism, and most of it's modern connotations come from the idea of thirteen apostles rather than a slander on Jewish beliefs.
The portrayal of Lillith is largely stolen from Sumerian mythology surrounding a type of wind demon named Lilitu, later associated with Ishtar and temple prostitution. The dead sea scrolls only mention Lillith as a seducing spirit, not as anything to do with Genesis. That interpretation doesn't show up until the 7th to 10th century CE, as part of an anonymous text entitled 'The Alphabet of Ben Sira'. It is a nice parable on religious Misogyny though.
Some of the apocryphal books are gnostic-influenced. Most of the apocryphal Gospels are less gnostic in nature than the Gosepel of John and many bear no relation to Gnosticism as they are not related to the New Testament.
As for your characterisation of Gnosticism, you are so far off that it's hard to imagine we're even talking about the same concepts.
First off, it's not a name for the movement between Judaism and Christianity. It's one of the early branches of Christianity, which would eventually prove less popular than the established version and subsequently died out due to interference and later violence from the more mainstream branches. The apparent ties to established non-abrahamic mystery traditions (such as the Mithraic and Eleusinian cults) were a part of what got them done in, although the closeness is exaggerated in many ways.
Secondly, Gnosticism portrays the Creator god, the Demiurge, as the only God that directly interferes with the created world (Gnostics generally interpret this to be Yahweh and Gnostic tradition varies between considering him a flawed victim of his own existence and just an evil bastard). The true God is not a personal God that can be reached within this world, which is why it was Jesus who appeared to lead people to true Gnosis (again, Gnostics vary a bit here. Some portray Jesus as the equal lowest of the Aeons, which would make him a minor emanation of the true God and partner to Sophia. Others portray him as just one of the humans to find a way out, comparing him to Gautama and similar mystics).
Thirdly, Gnostics generally don't follow the Old Testament as they consider it written by people tricked into following a flawed, possibly evil God. Some might go so far as to claim that the Hebrews knowingly followed an evil god, others would say that the Demiurge was behind all (or just many) religions and subsequently discard any religious teachings that don't fit their anti-materialist mould.
Last edited by Dr Mario; 19th-August-2007 at 08:11.
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Uh-huh, the Three Sixes go at points of a star in part of a large diagram used in a communion ritual. I haven't seen the book detailing this ritual for a few years now so I can't scan it up for you. If you can't find it in Kabbalah ritual, look for it under Merqabah.
The meaning of 13 comes from the Hebrew alphabet's number/letter equivalence. A TON of Jewish mystical thinking comes from word values.
As for the stuff about Lillith you said, that's a fine long standing tradition where it concerns religions, taking over old symbology and gods/devils. Kinda like how your average persons concept of the devil is pretty much the old deity, Pan. Most of the god/devil images we know can be traced back nearly as far as records exist.
As far as all that Evil Genius stuff, I think therefore I am.
I'd tell you what I think about Jesus but this ain't the place. Leave it at He is God's son, we are all God's Children. Jesus was more of a Role Model than an Ultimate Being. We all have the same potential. So why aren't we all a lot more like Jesus?
EDIT: The stuff about Gnosticism is mostly about the NEW movement that's been taking shape since some of the Apocryphal texts have been re-discovered. Also, did we both just say the same thing about God being flawed while disagreeing? That's kinda cool imo. This Demiurge reminds me of something I heard, not sure where from, about established Religion destroying the world as we know it. Such a "flawed and evil" deity could in theory create conflicting religions specifically to set people against each other, all convinced that killing all the others will get them to Heaven or what ever.
EXTREMELY sorry for hijacking the thread. I'll be leaving now. I truly apologize.
Last edited by skullpoker; 19th-August-2007 at 07:47.
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Fear and Loathing
I've never seen a judaic star laid out in that style (the Merkabah arrangement is fairly common amongst new agers as well, but I've never seen one of theirs like it either), so I'd appreciate a book title or something I could use to track down more info.
I'm not familiar enough with Hebrew/Aramaic language to judge the letter/number equivalence, so I'll leave that for someone else.
Indeed. I personally like the Adam/Lillith narrative, but it's about as theologically relevant as the average Christians image of demons.
If you'd like to elaborate on this (especially the Taoist/Anishinaabe elements in your belief) I'd be happy to hear it. That's not a common combination of faiths, and it's always interesting to see a new take on things, even if I don't agree with it.
Eh. This thread was well and truly hijacked by the second post.
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diest ftw!
i can believe in god but i dont have to prove anything!
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Had I not been on so many *ahem* mind expanding substances at the time... Like I said it's been about 2 or 3 years making it hard to remember anyways. It wasn't the one about John Dee/Ed Kelly(a duo who channeled angels, and were given the rudiments of the magic that the Angels gave to Enoch, King of the First[or second] city. This magic was supposed to be the Word, which created everything, and could entirely change reality. Due to lack of understanding, they couldn't do much with it, but John Dee became the protector and consort of the Queen of England, to whom he would send letters signed 007)... It wasn't that one either(blue cover, man in white robe invoking the Pentagram[Modern Magic I think but I can't recall author, much Kabalah and rosicrucian magic]) I think it was also the one concerning Hebrew numeric system, Grammatons, different mystical Hebraic matrices. I think that was the one, really about Kabbalah and Merqabah mysticism, but I really can't remember the title. And I think the same Rite could be used for any spirit whose name was known, not specifically angels. I BELIEVE that the 6's are on the 3 points of the upward pointing triangle, and that was just the top of a much larger circle, probably 10 feet or more across.
Try reading this without logging in. Any time the word Hebrew comes up, it should be linked to a Jewish forum, saying something in the bubble about Hebrew language... The basis is that every letter has a given number value, and is in fact also how they write that number, and so their words based on a similar concept had the same number. That would probably make learning their language a lot easier if they could teach the numbers first.
As I said about it being God's Will for so many Apocryphal texts to resurface recently, I think this story is especially meaningful now. Especially in the aftermath of the pill and the Sexual Revolution, sexual harassment law, AIDS, God knows what else. Can't wait to see Male Supremacists running the streets yelling "We're losing our country! To the Women-folk!" lol So perhaps not THEOLOGICALLY relevant, but relevant nonetheless.
Taoism has a great hold on me, ever since the first few pages of Tao te Ching I read. Big bang theory says that at first there was only one type of particle(only ONE particle?) Kaboom! All the sudden, another type exists so that more can exist. Evil exists so Good can exist and vice versa. That's what really sucked me into that. Theories of physics that were part of a religion/faith that has been around for 3 or 4 thousand years. Some of that also runs parallel to the Jewish Tree of Life as you probably know. After the light there was a point, then another point so the first one could know itself, then the line, a third point so the first two could judge their relation to each other, on and on.
Anishinaabe is the race commonly known in Minnesota as Chippewa, chippewa being a word that white people created. That part of my faith is something I just feel inside. The more I come to experience the old ways, the more I know myself, see? I really think sometimes about going off into the woods deep in the reservation and just living with the land, seeing if any other Anishinaabe will come join me. A lot of us still go ricing in the fall, some Elders still make the maple syrup, the crafts of Birch bark and leather still are taught in area schools, pow wows are held more often than I know. Just get away from money and greed and noise. Return to the peaceful life. Back in the hunter/gatherer days, most people only worked(hunted) a few hours a week. Kill a deer, and you can feed your family, taking days off. Make some into Jerky and that can go all winter. And if the wife and kids get on your nerves "Hunting Party!!! W00T!!!" Come back in a few days lol You've probably seen Disneys Pocahotass. A lot of that about everything having a spirit is right. Everything is connected, because everything is still a part of Creation.
As far as the Jesus thing, that would REALLY piss Christians off, so I won't get into it here.
The first post really seemed like some human was really trying to express their faith, and that's not something that really should be disrespected. That's why I felt the need to apologize. I kinda felt like I had done that... But Yes, that whole saltiness thing was pretty much a killer. lol
Mentioning Apocrypha, The Gospel of Judas! What amazing faith would you need to turn a person you KNOW to be God over to authorities who you know will kill him!!!!!
If a person you loved with all your being turned to you and said, "To prove your love and devotion to me, you have to lead people to me who will torture and kill me. Then you are going to watch at the murderers side, while all your fellow apostles revile and hate you for dooming me. Then you will be known through 2 millenia as the great betrayer, hated by all men who worship our God. You will do all this for me, and to prove your devotion to God." could you do it?
Kinda seems like a lot of other people who had trials in the Bible had it REAL easy.
Last edited by skullpoker; 19th-August-2007 at 09:56.
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Fear and Loathing
Go ahead, it's not like there isn't enough material offensive to them already.
Depending on the interpretation, you can make a case for Judas being the most faithful of the disciples and you can also make a case for him being caught up in one of the greatest divine screwjobs since Prometheus. More than one christian offshoot has held Judas in quite high esteem based on an interpretation similar to that.
It gets even more interesting, on a symbolic rather than theological or historical level, when you realise the etymology of Iscariot can be traced to back to meaning "of the Sicarii" (anti-roman revolutionaries active in the time leading up to the second destruction of the temple, who were known to murder both Romans and those they considered Roman accomplices and apparently escape by blending in with the shocked crowd. During the beginning of the Jewish Revolt, they even stooped to sabotaging their own people to force them into open rebellion). This isn't the only possible explanation for the term Iscariot being used, but if it is true it creates an interesting comparision to Jewish politics at the time the gospels were being written.
Last edited by Dr Mario; 19th-August-2007 at 10:05.
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Interesting that you separate these concepts. Next, separate heads from tails. Well, what are you waiting for? Do it already!
Basically, I don't think Jesus was born any more special than anybody else. He was just a common unclaimed bastard like so many of us are now. <-- offensive part
So as far as working miracles, healing the sick and all that, wtf? you may ask. Every time in recent history that these sort of abilities have been documented, all that most people want to do is discredit them. It's not a Miracle if nobody believes in it. rofl@miracle on ice. So we've become a society that a hockey game is the kind of thing we think is a miracle, and when somebody shows some ability in defying a physical force or healing others, we go out of our way to prove that it is not real.
But back then Jesus could do all these things and people who saw this would say, "OMFG it's a Miracle!" And even more outlandish, people would listen to him rather than trying to prove that he's crazy.
As far as being inhumanly wise, you try making a pilgrimage of many years to go and learn to do all the things Jesus learned, traveling the far east learning from people who have been civilized for millenia before your people even thought of it. The kind of people back then who would teach an outsider their arts would definitely require a person of the highest quality. So it kind of is a toss-up as to whether he arrived wise or learned that wisdom from a mentor. Jesus was a Bastard, and God is Everything.
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Banned
You guys keep forgetting that A that starts the word "Agnostic"
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