Shaky Polygons?

[SolidSnake3035]

So I just got ePSXe 1.9 set up and going with a few different plugins, but every game I try (RE2, MGS, FFVII, etc.) has these awful shaky polygons. It's the worst on MGS, absolutely atrocious looking.
What I'm wondering though is if it's an emulation issue or that's just how these games ran, and it was less noticeable back in the day and in low resolution?

I've gotten GameCube and N64 emulators set up and looking/running really nice, so I was hoping to be able to do the same for this, but it seems to be vastly more complicated for some weird ambiguous reason.

So is this a known issue? Can anything be done about it? Is there just something I'm being stupid and missing? Should I just forget my hopes of having these games playable and good looking without issue like I can on other emulators?

Also, how do I get cheats working? I'm assuming that's another separate plugin or something?

I don't know why this can't be setup like Dolphin for example, which is just all-in-one and really well put together.

I'd appreciate any help in getting this to work if it's relatively simple, though I don't think I really want to bother if it's going to be a grueling process of going through trial and error with settings for each individual game to get them working decently.

What's confusing to me is that ePSXe on my Android seems to be pretty straight-forward, and it even has the GUI for selecting a game. Though there's a huge issue with portrait mode not working and the whole control setup being ridiculously broken. It's like I don't think these developers are even really trying with this one. I wish it was like one of the others where there are clearly people working on it who care about what they put out there.
It really sucks because other than a couple handfuls of games all of my favorites were on PS1, or of course PC where this isn't an issue...


Update: video demonstration, make sure to watch in fullscreen at maximum quality

[Zorlon]

No idea what you are talking about...

Not seen any shaky polygons in any of those games..

I strongly recommend you try software mode (PEoPs Soft) though and see if the same effect you attempted to describe is still there (just press F7 to toggle to software mode in-game)

I would also stick to multiples of 320x240 for the res setup (e.g. 640x480 960x720 ect ect), to ensure it is not some weird effect from forcing the game in aspect ratio/resolution that could of caused that

[SolidSnake3035]

The problem is still there in software mode, though it's a bit less obvious since it's rendering at the super low resolution. I'm starting to think that it was just how the PS1 rendered 3D models but it wasn't an issue on such a low resolution.

I can show you exactly what I mean if you can suggest a good way to capture and upload a video of it. I don't have fraps but perhaps there's something else?

It's like every time a model moves or is viewed from a different angle, for example looking around in first person in MGS or slightly rotating the character in RE2, everything being rendered in 3D moves and warps and shakes. Nothing holds its shape.
Nothing like this occurs on N64 for example where rendering those games at 1600x1200 produces a clear and proper image of the low-polygon models just fine. Like if you ran an old PC game at high res, totally normal.
The way this is happening on PS1 is giving me the impression that either these programs can't properly and accurately emulate how actual PS1 hardware would run a game, or like I said earlier that it's just how the PS1 software is designed and it wasn't ever noticeable on the console and with old TVs.




Well I tried it out on all the different plugins with lots of different settings and it's the same with everything, which leads me to believe that's just how it is for some stupid reason.
When I run it on really low res it's definitely harder to tell that it's happening since the thing is so small and there are so few pixels that the weird movements are barely registering.

What's sad is how old all these plugins seem to be though, with settings and notes that assume you only have access to hardware from the early 2000's... Are there any newer enhanced plugins that are designed specifically for recent powerful hardware? Perhaps even something made to deal with this issue?

[Zorlon]

Still don't know what you are talking about.

http://www.pbernert.com/html/gpu.htm

all updated 2008 to 2009

The only thing I can think of is the low res textures (they can look odd when stretched) as for the shape of the polygons they are perfect no matter what I try, though I do stick to the multiples of 320x240 thing to get the best overall results, I never liked forcing any image to something silly like widescreen even on my TV I'm like that, 4:3 games are still played in 4:3, I might zoom so the image goes off screen but that depends if the game has info needed in the area's that are off screen (needless to say I don't do that 99% of the time).

Wish I knew what you are talking about though...

Why you would render anything at such a high res is beyond me unless you have a super huge screen to display on you are not going to get any sort of benefit from that, on a large TV x1080 is just fine for anything you would need a super huge TV though for you to start getting real benefit from higher res (though x1200 will not have much difference anyway to x1080) for a monitor even a large one there isn't any advantage to running at that res

[SolidSnake3035]

My monitor is 1920x1200, so full screen 4:3 is 1600x1200... Why would you not run something at the highest res you could? Unless maybe you're not a PC gamer and just don't get it.

Still don't know what you are talking about.

http://www.pbernert.com/html/gpu.htm

all updated 2008 to 2009

That's 5 years ago. Hardly recent at all with regards to hardware and software. (Or technology in general, it's practically ancient history.)


Anyway, I've made a video so you can see what I'm describing. If after watching it in fullscreen at high quality you're still unsure of what I'm talking about, you must have never played anything other than a PS1 game before.

[deadlegion]

Honestly, you are trying to play old console games at ridiculous resolutions. Looking at the video I could live with that.
But then I only emulate stuff on my original Xbox, and use real console hardware for most games really.
But if you're aiming for master race quality gaming then maybe you shouldn't try emulating console games that are so old at such high resolutions.

Some (if not many) of the PSX games you are trying to emulate would have PC versions anyway. See if they look any better

[MaslowK]

http://www.pbernert.com/html/gpu.htm

all updated 2008 to 2009

That's 5 years ago. Hardly recent at all with regards to hardware and software. (Or technology in general, it's practically ancient history.)

Those are the most updated versions of the best plugins available for ePSXe, despite their age. Generally speaking the OpenGL2 plugin is the best one to use for 3D games (if your video hardware supports it). You can also try the ones labeled D3D and see if they look/run any better.

As for the jittery texture issue, using some texture filtering options (or scanlines) in the plugin might help it look a little less pronounced, but upping the resolution won't. After a certain point the resolution becomes mostly irrelevant when it comes to games this old.

Why would you not run something at the highest res you could? Unless maybe you're not a PC gamer and just don't get it.

Because when you're talking about games that run anywhere between 256x240 & 640x480, trying to set them to a higher resolution isn't going to magically create more detail where there was none to begin with. The same goes for older PC games, where they were never built with super high resolutions in mind, as opposed to newer games where the range of available resolutions is generally much greater (and ergo, make a more obvious difference).

[SolidSnake3035]

Honestly, you are trying to play old console games at ridiculous resolutions. Looking at the video I could live with that.
But then I only emulate stuff on my original Xbox, and use real console hardware for most games really.
But if you're aiming for master race quality gaming then maybe you shouldn't try emulating console games that are so old at such high resolutions.

I'm not aiming for master race PC game quality, though that would be swell. I'm just aiming for something comparable to what I've experienced with nearly every other emulation I've tried. (As you can see in the video below.)

Some (if not many) of the PSX games you are trying to emulate would have PC versions anyway. See if they look any better

A valid point, though they tend to have far more problems that greatly outweigh any benefit they might have.

As for the jittery texture issue, using some texture filtering options (or scanlines) in the plugin might help it look a little less pronounced, but upping the resolution won't. After a certain point the resolution becomes mostly irrelevant when it comes to games this old.

Well, it's not actually an issue with the textures as far as I can tell. Sure they look warbley, but that's only because they're stretching around these constantly moving polygons.
I think these movements are only this obvious because of the resolution. Originally, the movements that are taking place only affect one or two pixels at a time and are therefore hardly noticeable. The issue isn't trying to run them at a high resolution though, it's that the damn models move like this in the first place.

Because when you're talking about games that run natively anywhere between 256x240 & 640x480, trying to set them to a higher resolution isn't going to magically create more detail where there was none to begin with. The same goes for older PC games, where they were never built with super high resolutions in mind.

The issue isn't trying to create more detail where there was none. I'm not expecting more polygons to magically appear. Though I know that the models are better than they're showing, especially in MGS where you have cutscenes that show them close up and while obviously not great they are better than what we're seeing from far away.
I think one thing that might be happening is distant models aren't actually representing all of their polygons. Like there is something in place to adjust that on the fly so the games can have more happening on screen at once. This doesn't necessarily account for the entire unstable/movement issue, but it would explain some of it.
When running these games at a higher resolution, you should be able to see the model as if it were closer. Not adding detail that isn't there, but resolving the entire model since there are enough pixels to represent it now as opposed to before with the original low resolution.
It would seem like if this is an issue with how the games are designed, there could be some patch or hack to allow it to run differently and alleviate this problem. If any of you have contact with people who create these plugins or work on emulators maybe you could let them know about this thread and see if they'd be able to come up with something.


Here you can see an example I made of proper emulation of a traditionally low-resolution game in flawless detail. This is all I was hoping to achieve with my PlayStation games. Nothing unrealistic, no new HD textures(although that emulator even has an option for loading custom textures), and nothing that wasn't there before. Just very simply more resolution, smoothness, and clarity.


That Dolphin emulator is actually quite impressive. I'm able to load the game up, and go into graphics settings while it's loaded and adjust everything on the fly. I can click into wire-frame mode if I want to see the actual models making up the damn game. Everything is so much more straight-forward and fluid. Never mind the awesome built-in cheat engine that even lets you scan and create your own if you're someone who knows about doing that(though I am not). Also, every game has it's own attached config setup so you can set each one to run the way that it needs to, rather than having to go into setup and change stuff every time you want to play a different game.
I seriously wish those guys could do the same for PlayStation... It's such a shame that we're stuck with this old and messy crap.

[deadlegion]

If you're using Dolphin and love it then maybe try these games instead:
Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes - Gamecube (remake of original MGS, not vastly different really. But some differences...although last time I looked there were emu issues).
Resident Evil 2 - Gamecube (same game iirc, maybe someone else could remind me if it isn't).

Resident Evil has a remake on Gamecube & Wii too.
RE3 is on Gamecube, same game.
RE Zero is on Gamecube & Wii.
RE Code Veronica X is on Gamecube.

RE4 has a plethora of versions. The PC version might have some cool mods/enhancements, I really wouldn't know

[Zorlon]

To be honest it is just low res running at high res, the N64 example is pure 3D asides from the backdrops in the tree house that is a bitmap image bent to rotate same as the sky outside and distant background images, you can't really use that against the other examples

MGS for example is not just a polygon background but has textures adding to the effects they used for that game anyway (something that looked very nice at the time via a CRT TV)

FF7 I could not see anything wrong with it, slight overlaps of polygons that has always been there (basic polygons used here, but with pre rendered backdrops)

FF8 I could not see anything wrong with it, it does have slight texture over lapping but that is like that to start with

Resi 2 is also fine though the distant shot you can see the pixels changing shape and that 3D is low res for the leon 3D model (low enough for you to be able to see the difference between 1 pixcel and 2), that might be higher res when it's a closer shot (that is not so much an obscurity and mess up but just the way the game worked) again that would of looked ok on a CRT TV (though to be honest for that game I have noticed that before even on a CRT TV, that did not distract from the game) [At a guess they did not really render leon in 3D more of a pre render instead of a live render, not sure but you should not be able to see pixcels on a 3D model so easy in high res] (I know the game uses 3D models for the hero's and monsters (but something does not add up for it to be pixelated), backdrops are all pre rendered)


I know what you are talking about now but it is just a res thing

it's a pixel enlarge issue mostly except maybe Metal Gear that used certain effects best viewed on a TV (that does not look so good at that high a res)
1x5 = 5 that's 5x original res
2x5 = 10 that's 5x original res
so when a skin changes from 1 pixel to 2 when blown up like that to a high res that is going to be very very noticeable, but when that is done via a CRT TV you would not notice that unless your face was almost touching the TV set

The N64 game shown is just made of Polygons with no real textures [except distant backdrops and inside the tree house] (neither does FF7 though either)

The N64 had a better 3D engine in a way but was a simple 3D engine that did not support textures (later games did have textures like RE2, you can program anything like that though eventually) [The N64 also had very early 480p support the PSX did not]
The PSX was a lower res console with a basic 3D engine, they used a lot of tricks ect to get good looking images from low res source files, but this was via a CRT TV screen that looks nothing as close on a high def screen in high def (that is before any 3D enhancements)

http://psxdatacenter.com/ has some nice examples of setups for most PSX games, I don't know if graphics can be improved at high res that much or not but it is worth a look at anyway.

e.g. for MGS

Pete's OpenGL Driver v2.9 ( internal X & Internal Y= Very High, Stretching mode: Stretch to full window size, render Mode: 2 (Use framebuffer object) text filt = 2 FPS limit= 63, Compatibility=2,3,2; Shader effects= 1 (Fullscreen smoothin))

You can have setups for each game for ePSXe as well have the ability to search for codes, but both of these things are done externally, cheats via PEC (including a search engine to find your own codes), setups done for each game can be done via front end by Pete (same pete that does the plugins) called ePSXeCuter (you can either keep each setup inside that or use it to create a short cut for each game).

I admit there are features that could be included directly in ePSXe that are not but it is still the best enhancing PSX emulator to date.

As for your comment about the plugins being out of date, well the hardware has not changed so much over those years either, the power of the hardware has gone up the way the hardware works has not.

As above several of the games have been ported over RE2 is on tons of systems including N64, PC, PSX, GC and Dreamcast the last two are my fav versions my favs, MGS yeah I own the GC version also that is mostly an engine upgrade but there are other minor updates added as well. (Original MGS does have some odd effects but those are part of the engine rather than obscurity from high res, but it is clearer to see at high res that is not how it was intended then again no PSX game was intended to run at that high a res)

[deadlegion]

Twin Snakes honestly looks pretty good imo, and I only use it on a hardmodded Wii.
If the OP can get some of the games running on Dolphin it might be better than the headaches he has atm.

[Zorlon]

psxdatacenter is worth a look specially for FF games that are not ported to other consoles though there are PC ports

Played that to death on my GC now (I do have the retail disc's) I have it installed to the Wii now (soft modded, it runs perfect now from HDD)

RE2 for GC does have some graphical fixes that none of the others had (a couple of scenes has sherries neck shown over other polygons where it should not there is also a scene with bars and there lap over incorrectly in all other ports)

I know the game should run ok from Dolphin as well (from reading, no other reason my laptop is not that good for that system to be emulated)