Anonymous vs. Scientology

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Originally Posted by Paladin_Hammer

what the fuck did scientology do to you if you've never been in it?

When the hell did scientology kill somebody?

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Let's see, various illegal activities to overthrow/manipulate various governments and political figures, seedy as hell recruitment practices, blackmail and censorship of critics, cutting off members from friends and family, a "join us or die" attitude which may eventually cause issues if they ever become a widespread religion (which while similarly exercised by other religions, most religions don't have a floating military force waiting for the "right moment" to "strike", nor do they, as a group, accept it as much as scientologists appears to.), eh, the list goes on.

Do some research, they've killed and threatened to kill several people over the years.

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Originally Posted by Robin v. Persie

The same could be said about Greenpeace, just to throw an example out there. End, means, etc. I'm not arguing on the fucktards being fucktards part, but I don't really see your point either.

Oh, I didn't actually imply it had anything to do with the Alamo, but the tagline sounds ridiculous.

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Greenpeace wants to basically "save teh anim@ls". Which is a noble cause. However, a few of their members have used less-than-legal (or moral) methods to achieve those ends. This doesn't mean Greenpeace is shit, it means they have some less-than-likeable members! It doesn't make the whole organization bad.

And these guys, "anonymous", are attacking Scientology for what? "Supposed", as in "unproven", discrepancies? So basically this is kind of like the time G. Bush said "There are WMD's in Iraq"? Vigilante justice is outlawed for a fucking reason. Hacking a website is illegal, and judging by the mindset "anonymous" has (with this whole "we are legion" and what-not bullshit), they exhibit more signs of religion-gone-bad than Scientology! Anonymous has hacked websites, made threats, and attacked innocent civilians (see: THIS SHIT ).

So far, anonymous looks like the very thing they claim to hate.

Paladin, google these terms/names.

Operation PC Freakout
Operation Snow White
Rehabilitative Project Force
R2:45
Fair Game Policy
Lisa McPherson
Noah Lottick
Heribert Pfaff
Josephus Havenith


Then come back to this topic.

This isn't about the religion, or what its members believe. This is about the actions of the Orgs, the Church itself, and what it does. Those that practice in the "Free Zone" are free to do so, they're not committing the crimes that the church itself is.

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Originally Posted by Raype

Let's see, various illegal activities to overthrow/manipulate various governments and political figures, seedy as hell recruitment practices, blackmail and censorship of critics, cutting off members from friends and family, a "join us or die" attitude which may eventually cause issues if they ever become a widespread religion (which while similarly exercised by other religions, most religions don't have a floating military force waiting for the "right moment" to "strike", nor do they, as a group, accept it as much as scientologists appears to.), eh, the list goes on.

Do some research, they've killed and threatened to kill several people over the years.

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"Join or die"? When? Where? Who? I've never seen this before, nor have I ever heard of a scientologist killing someone over their religion. And manipulation of government? Dude, WHAT ORGANIZATION DOESN'T HAVE LOBBIST? Hell, everything from the Tabbacco industry to the red-cross has members in Washington trying to get their way. "Censorship of Critics"? I recall seeing a South Park episode on scientology, and I recall seeing it on DVD just a few weeks ago. Psychologist cut off family members when they think that its deterimental to someone, should we attack them?

And if you've done ANY research saying that a scientologist has killed someone for not being or refusing to be a scientologist, I'd like to see your research. One thing militant (so-called) "freethinkers" on youtube have been telling me to do is research their claims (like one guy who told me that all the wars in the last century were aused by Christians, which is bullshit, See: Soviet Invasion of Afganistan, Kmer Rouge, N. Korea, etc etc etc).

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Originally Posted by Cheezymadman

Paladin, google these terms/names.

Operation PC Freakout
Operation Snow White
Rehabilitative Project Force
R2:45
Fair Game Policy
Lisa McPherson
Noah Lottick
Heribert Pfaff
Josephus Havenith


Then come back to this topic.

This isn't about the religion, or what its members believe. This is about the actions of the Orgs, the Church itself, and what it does. Those that practice in the "Free Zone" are free to do so, they're not committing the crimes that the church itself is.

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So lets see, the "Rehabilitation Project Force" was a place for members who weren't living up to the churchs standards, where they worked in manual labor. Boo-freaking hoo. They had the choice to leave if they didn't like it. As anyone who doesn't like their religion does in the US.

Operation Snow White was basically the shredding of documents of unfavorable things L. Ron Hubbard did, including those in the hands of the Federal Government. The 1970's! Who the hell (save Sprung) was alive then that is here? Or in "anonymous"? And didn't the FBI send the conspirators of said operation to prison? So that was taken care of? 30 years ago?

Operation Freakout looks as bad as you guys make it sound, save one area, the members of scientology who were involved in it were also in Operation Snow White (and sent to prison).

R2:45 has never been used according to everything I've found. Hell, Hubbard even said in the transcript for the lecture "Exteriorization", he refers to R2-45, and the process as being "used humorously". So, its nevef been used, so what the hell is this about?

The "Fair Game Policy" was ended in 1968! Forty years ago! Critics argue that it continues to this day. So, let me get this straight. Since a few guys heckle someone who doesn't like their religion, now its okay for vigilantes to hack websites, post innocent persons credit-card and SS numbers, and basically harrass the hell out of people, even sending them "death threats" (see:this again). So someone gets heckled and now your going to steal information and tell them your going to kill them. Great, VERY HYPOCRITCAL.

This whole thing is as hypocritical and stupid as I thought it was. Your attacking this thing because of issues that happened THIRTY+ years ago. Great, why don't I go and kill everyone in Veitnam? I mean, they did kill Americans, thirty years ago, so I should just live in the past and take revenge. Thats the thinking you guys and "anonymous" have.

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Originally Posted by Paladin_Hammer

"Join or die"? When? Where? Who? I've never seen this before, nor have I ever heard of a scientologist killing someone over their religion. And manipulation of government? Dude, WHAT ORGANIZATION DOESN'T HAVE LOBBIST? Hell, everything from the Tabbacco industry to the red-cross has members in Washington trying to get their way. "Censorship of Critics"? I recall seeing a South Park episode on scientology, and I recall seeing it on DVD just a few weeks ago. Psychologist cut off family members when they think that its deterimental to someone, should we attack them?

And if you've done ANY research saying that a scientologist has killed someone for not being or refusing to be a scientologist, I'd like to see your research. One thing militant (so-called) "freethinkers" on youtube have been telling me to do is research their claims (like one guy who told me that all the wars in the last century were aused by Christians, which is bullshit, See: Soviet Invasion of Afganistan, Kmer Rouge, N. Korea, etc etc etc).

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Yeah.. I'd adress your last post (aimed at me), but I wouldn't know where to start. It's a bit worse than lobbists, I'm afraid.

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Originally Posted by Paladin_Hammer

"Join or die"? When? Where? Who? I've never seen this before, nor have I ever heard of a scientologist killing someone over their religion.

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Google. Use it. Or check out some of the stuff cheezy mentioned. Keep in mind, that's just the shit we KNOW ABOUT. I also direct you to http://www.xenu.net for some further reading on scientology's policies.

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And manipulation of government? Dude, WHAT ORGANIZATION DOESN'T HAVE LOBBIST? Hell, everything from the Tabbacco industry to the red-cross has members in Washington trying to get their way.

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If we were talking lobbyists, I wouldn't have brought it up. Again, research. It's considerably darker than a couple of guys trying to get the feds to see things their way.

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"Censorship of Critics"? I recall seeing a South Park episode on scientology, and I recall seeing it on DVD just a few weeks ago.

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Yes, however if you recall they repeatedly tried to prevent circulation of that episode, and that's really just the tip of the iceberg. *cough* cruise recruitment video *cough*

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Psychologist cut off family members when they think that its deterimental to someone, should we attack them?

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Psychologists typically do it for medical reasons. Spiritual reasons are a whole different matter in my book.

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And if you've done ANY research saying that a scientologist has killed someone for not being or refusing to be a scientologist, I'd like to see your research.

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http://www.whyaretheydead.net/
Considering the high fatality rate of new recruits, I would think it probable some people wanted "out" and got it. In a body bag.

As for attempted murder, well I think cheezy provided a good enough example in the form of both PC freakout and Snow White.

Operation Snow White actually had members infiltrating the FBI and CIA, providing documents back to the "church", tapping gov't phones, etc.

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Originally Posted by Cheezymadman

Operation Snow White actually had members infiltrating the FBI and CIA, providing documents back to the "church", tapping gov't phones, etc.

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I direct you all to the edit on my last post. This shit happened 30(+) years ago. Most of it (Snow white and Freakout) were prosecuted with members of the Church going to JAIL. Congradulations, things have gone full circle. You've were the oppressed (not really, this happened before most of you wer born), and became the oppressors.

EDIT: And I once again point to this: http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/200...ous-hac-1.html

Scientologist may have done some bad things over the years (or decades ago), but today innocent people are losing their lives because of a few "lynch-mob hackers". Great, its the old west all over again. I wonder when I won't be safe? I'm posting against this, seeing as people who have nothing to do with scientology or anonymous are being attacked, its only a matter of time before someone who thinks this whole thing is retarded hs his information posted online... maybe I better go out and buy a gun and put holds on my credit cards now?

EDIT: http://www.whyaretheydead.net/

Lets see, this website also lists people who died from CANCER. How the hell is it scientology's fault if people die, FROM CANCER? It also includes scientologist who died from drug abuse, work-related accidents, and more. Namely: Stacy Grove Meyer (died after falling off a ladder into electrical wiring), Quentin Hubbard (who basically overdosed on... everything), Gabriella Bramucci (Cancer), Sue Mueller (Cancer), the list just goes on and on. Since when the hell is it Scientology's fault that someone died from Cancer? There is no cure for it. There are a ton of suicides in here that are confusing, some point to the bankruptcy scientology can lead to (which is indeed the Church's fault), and others only have "possibly". I could do this all day, but CoD:4 is calling, and I need my fix.

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Originally Posted by Paladin_Hammer

I direct you all to the edit on my last post. This shit happened 30(+) years ago. Most of it (Snow white and Freakout) were prosecuted with members of the Church going to JAIL. Congradulations, things have gone full circle. You've were the oppressed (not really, this happened before most of you wer born), and became the oppressors.

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Lisa McPherson: 1995
Heribert Pfaff: 1988

Yup. Before I was born, alright. Oh wait, they aren't.

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Originally Posted by Cheezymadman

Lisa McPherson: 1995
Heribert Pfaff: 1988

Yup. Before I was born, alright. Oh wait, they aren't.

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On the website (the why they are dead one), there doesn't appear to be any proven link to scientology. And real quick, how are you so sure this isn't just a few of Scientologies members? And not the church? If your going to attack an organization for what could have just been some fucked up members, then I'd suggest you direct your attention to the White House. It could use some cleaning out.

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Originally Posted by Paladin_Hammer

Operation Snow White was basically the shredding of documents of unfavorable things L. Ron Hubbard did, including those in the hands of the Federal Government. The 1970's! Who the hell (save Sprung) was alive then that is here? Or in "anonymous"? And didn't the FBI send the conspirators of said operation to prison? So that was taken care of? 30 years ago?

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Again, that's just the stuff we know about. The fact that they did this sort of thing (and fairly recently in the grand scheme of things, I might add) is fairly unsettling.

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Operation Freakout looks as bad as you guys make it sound, save one area, the members of scientology who were involved in it were also in Operation Snow White (and sent to prison).

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Yes. By high ranking scientologists. While Hubbard was still alive. And (most likely) under his orders. Yeah. So, what was your point again? Oh right, something about how scientology changed in the past 30 years. Right right. Because they aren't still using policies put in place by the guilty parties while praising their acti- Oh, right.

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The "Fair Game Policy" was ended in 1968! Forty years ago! Critics argue that it continues to this day. So, let me get this straight. Since a few guys heckle someone who doesn't like their religion, now its okay for vigilantes to hack websites, post innocent persons credit-card and SS numbers, and basically harrass the hell out of people, even sending them "death threats" (see:this again). So someone gets heckled and now your going to steal information and tell them your going to kill them. Great, VERY HYPOCRITCAL.

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Yeah, it stopped in 68-waitaminute!

Also, you appear to be missing the point. Anonymous is using the same (or similar) methods to do this "attack" as scientology has used in the past (or is currently using, according to some) to do the same thing. If you're hating Anon for doing this, I'd like to point out that scientology does the same thing. That, correct me if I'm wrong, was sort of the whole point of this thing, using "fair game" like policies against people who use "fair game" like policies.

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This whole thing is as hypocritical and stupid as I thought it was. Your attacking this thing because of issues that happened THIRTY+ years ago. Great, why don't I go and kill everyone in Veitnam? I mean, they did kill Americans, thirty years ago, so I should just live in the past and take revenge. Thats the thinking you guys and "anonymous" have.

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Yes, because it's not like america chose to enter vietnam- Oh. My mistake, they did. Yeah.

You enter a war, you're going to lose some people.

It's an entirely different story than what we're discussing here, and I fail to see your point.

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EDIT: And I once again point to this: http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/200...ous-hac-1.html

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They accidentally targeted someone who wasn't a scientologist. Aside from being annoyed, I don't see anything overly negative coming of it. It's not like they framed him for murder or genocide or anything. :wacko:

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Scientologist may have done some bad things over the years (or decades ago), but today innocent people are losing their lives because of a few "lynch-mob hackers". Great, its the old west all over again. I wonder when I won't be safe? I'm posting against this, seeing as people who have nothing to do with scientology or anonymous are being attacked, its only a matter of time before someone who thinks this whole thing is retarded hs his information posted online... maybe I better go out and buy a gun and put holds on my credit cards now?

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"Innocent people losing their lives"? Funny, where are the lists of casualties of Anon's attacks? I don't recall seeing any deaths related to a hack. Where are your sources? I find your whole argument flawed until your provide proof that anon is killing people.

Oh, and this is less an attack against the actual faith of scientology, and more an attack against the ORGANIZATION of scientology. Big difference. In fact, I don't seem to recall seeing anything related to harassing the average CoS member, it was more directed towards the church's staff/recruiters/higher ups/most insane fanatical whackjobs with power

If people want to believe they're reincarnated space ghosts with super powers and get their bank accounts sucked dry, fine.

The problem is, the group behind the faith has a nasty track record and has, in several instances, done some pretty bad things. And yet somehow they're still allowed to operate.

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Originally Posted by Paladin_Hammer

On the website (the why they are dead one), there doesn't appear to be any proven link to scientology. And real quick, how are you so sure this isn't just a few of Scientologies members? And not the church? If your going to attack an organization for what could have just been some fucked up members, then I'd suggest you direct your attention to the White House. It could use some cleaning out.

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LM: Was in what is essentially a major CoS headquarters.
Was being converted to Scientology
"Attempted to leave"
Died.

HP: Again, major (or main) CoS HQ
Suffered severe epilepsy and was on meds for it.
CoS is EXTREMELY anti medicine, so he was taken off the meds.
He died.

Yeah, nothing seems off there.

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Originally Posted by Paladin_Hammer

On the website (the why they are dead one), there doesn't appear to be any proven link to scientology. And real quick, how are you so sure this isn't just a few of Scientologies members? And not the church? If your going to attack an organization for what could have just been some fucked up members, then I'd suggest you direct your attention to the White House. It could use some cleaning out.

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Jesus you're dense.

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Originally Posted by Paladin_Hammer

Scientologist may have done some bad things over the years (or decades ago), but today innocent people are losing their lives because of a few "lynch-mob hackers". Great, its the old west all over again. I wonder when I won't be safe? I'm posting against this, seeing as people who have nothing to do with scientology or anonymous are being attacked, its only a matter of time before someone who thinks this whole thing is retarded hs his information posted online... maybe I better go out and buy a gun and put holds on my credit cards now?

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http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/upl...4eb9c4a0e0.jpg

Show me proof that anon has killed anyone...and I'll probably laugh anyway.

http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/upl...077c9088eb.png

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Originally Posted by Paladin_Hammer

EDIT: http://www.whyaretheydead.net/

Lets see, this website also lists people who died from CANCER. How the hell is it scientology's fault if people die, FROM CANCER?

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Again, scientology is anti medicine, so they deny people treatment.

Medicine?
Bullshit
Psychiatry?
A load of crap.
Surgery?
Placebo.
Chemo?
Ha ha, yeah right.

Everything is caused by bad memories and space ghosts. The only way to cure it is to audit. Yup, you don't have cancer, you just THINK you do. So don't go to the doctor, just audit until you get better! Or die, whichever comes first! Relax though, you'll be reincarnated a long long time ago in a galaxy far, far away! Hooray for non linear time!

Think of it as Mormonism on steroids.

Yes yes, "if I take treatment I may live longer now, but my soul will be in peril!". Excuse me if I find any religion that preaches that to be full of shit.

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It also includes scientologist who died from drug abuse, work-related accidents, and more.

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Most of which were under questionable or semi questionably circumstances. Read beyond the first page, I'm sure you'll be surprised that at the very least there is some suspicious material to be found. And following:

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Stacy Grove Meyer (died after falling off a ladder into electrical wiring)

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Actually she climbed down a manhole and hit an uninsulated transformer while supposedly looking for a squirrel. Unsafe work environments and so forth. This particular death is somewhat disputable with some saying it's a coverup, others saying it was just a freak accident.

The claims of it being staged come from the fact that she somehow managed to lift a manhole cover herself (denied by people who say she was healthy enough), the fact that the manhole was supposedly still in place (the previous electrocution of a squirrel blew the manhole "several feet", and knocked out power, while in this case neither happened) and the fact that there were people nearby at the time yet somehow didn't notice her running around with a giant fucking stepladder or moving a bigass manhole cover.

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Quentin Hubbard (who basically overdosed on... everything),

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No, he (supposedly) committed suicide by running a hose from his exhaust to his window.

Oddly enough, all of his (and the vehicles) ID was missing. How very odd.

http://www.whyaretheydead.net/krasel/rvy.htm

"For example, Quentin was found unkempt with a beard stubble, a state that no one who knew Quentin could accept. (He was ultra-meticulous in his appearance.) Or that the license plate of the car was missing and found under a rock some distance away. Or that his wallet was gone, making identification impossible. Or that a near-empty bottle of liquor was found, as if he had been drinking, when Quentin did not. Or that there were needle marks on his arms, when he did not use drugs."

So let me get this straight, a guy who's supposedly EXTREMELY anal about his appearance and who doesn't touch drugs suddenly shows up looking like shit and probably "drunk as all hell" ? Not to mention:

" http://www.whyaretheydead.net/Quenti...2/quentin.html "

NEGATIVE for CO? That's odd, seeing as how he supposedly committed suicide using exhaust fumes. And his tox was negative. You'd think if he were shooting up shit and breathing fumes his results would've been whacked out, or would at least have some sort of MINOR hit.

Oh, and he died while comatose in a hospital (some claim his plug was pulled. Regardless of whether or not that's true, there's enough shit that doesn't sit right)

Also, as the "I don't take this shit seriously" gay son of CoS founder LRH (CoS is as anti gay as the next religion, if not more so) he was hardly popular with certain people.

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Gabriella Bramucci (Cancer),

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Again, classic "thetans and bad memories did it" attitude of scientology. Cancer is not a disease, chemo and drugs are bullshit, etc.

No real medical treatment being provided leads to death.

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Sue Mueller (Cancer)

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Ditto.

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Since when the hell is it Scientology's fault that someone died from Cancer? There is no cure for it.

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No, but there are treatments that can slow (and in some cases fix) cancers. One of the cases you mentioned involved breast cancer, arguably one of the more common and easily treatable cancers.

This, of course, means nothing to CoS, since the consensus is that the only REAL doctors are CoS doctors.

Oh, and before you point out that their religion has a right to choose or what not, the FOUNDER of the religion was on SEVERAL different prescription meds. He even had some in his system when he finally keeled over. How hypocritical to deny others medical treatment when you yourself are downing meds.

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There are a ton of suicides in here that are confusing, some point to the bankruptcy scientology can lead to (which is indeed the Church's fault),

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Bankruptcy, harassment, death threats, brainwashing. Supposedly the members are put through quite a bit. And leaving or discrediting the church can only be cured by suicide, According to some. Pretty fucked up stiff.

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and others only have "possibly".

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"Possibly" doesn't mean there's not a chance the church was involved in some way, shape, or form. :P

Egad, this may be my longest post in quite some time.

My fucking fingers, yo.

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Originally Posted by Paladin_Hammer

:btrain:

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You're being very defensive. I've got to ask, are you a Scientologist yourself? See, you're an intelligent guy normally but it doesn't make sense that you'd pick at little details whilst ignoring all the facts and arguments people have presented thus far. I'm fairly sure you possess basic comprehension skills and I honestly can't understand why you'd come in and defend the CoS, especially after reading and hopefully finding alternate sources for all the information that's been linked in this thread. There are more than enough confirmed accounts floating around the net from former high ranking officials - Jesse Prince, for one - to lend these accusations credibility.

Most people (myself included) hold no ill towards the followers of Scientology and agree that people should be free to practice religion in any way they wish as long as they don't infringe upon the rights of others, but the higher-ups and the celebrities who actively promote the CoS should be downright ashamed of themselves. From day one the organisation was designed to ruin lives and take advantage of people. Whilst I don't even remotely agree with most of the guerilla tactics that Anonymous appears to have engaged in, at least Joe Average's attention is being drawn towards all these scandals that have been swept under the rug. If all this does is make people think carefully and do their research before before joining the CoS then it's served a purpose.