An odd question about time travel...

[Allea]

Xena:
Satan is taunting god, saying we only serve him for blessings, if torutred is what I must endure to help god, so be it. Warriors of Ja do not seek a life of ease.

This is saying that God gives in to the taunts of Satan...

Paladin_Hammer:

... are you male or female?

Let's see...
Yep...still female...

[Xena]

This is saying that God gives in to the taunts of Satan...

Gives in? On the contary, He reply's to the taunts! He says, look! There are still people on the earth who serve me with out want for blessings.

[Lag]

wow...i looked at when this thread started...like, yesterday, and already 33 thousnad posts have been posted...or it seems

another reason why id travel back in time is to give a few lashes of the whip to jesus before they crucified him..
just kidding...not funny, i know, but im too lazy to press the delete button even once...im not that anti-christian, or even anti christian...im off topic here

a reason why id go back is to kill chris carabarabarabara of dashboard confessional when he was a baby by suffocting him with a axe...to the head...hed be crying then almost as much as he does now

[Allea]

Which is saying he somehow feels the need to account for the requests of Satan...one of his own creations, and yet, what you are saying is God says "Look...I'll show you!"
If I say "God show me lightning right now so that I may know you exist!"
It doesn't happen, but for Satan, God will obey and allow what Satan requests... (or answer as you call it)
Hmmm...

[Skinner8]

I still think it's only probable, not possible.

Like teleportation, though that is possible.

Uh. If something is probable, it kind of has to be possible...

[McGuinty]

(Kind of for Xena)
If time travel isn't possible then how can God be timeless?
Wouldn't being timeless be the same as travelling through all time at every given moment?
And if God is timeless (I know I am simplifying this but you get the point)
Then why was he upset when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit?
Didn't he already know they were going to do that?
And why was he so angered at the cities of Soddom and Gomorrah for living in sin?
He even allowed Satan to torture Lot so he could see the outcome and know if Lot would still love him after all his blessings were taken away...
And Abraham taking Isaac to be killed so Abraham could prove his love to God...
Wouldn't God have known already that Abraham loved him?
What an evil thing to do to a child (Isaac) if you already know what the outcome may be...
This supports the argument that time travel is impossible in that even God needs to test things to learn what the outcome may be, but it also destroys the argument that God is everywhere at all places and times that have or ever will be.
(I called God 'He' in this post just because it's a simpler way of saying God in the second person...although if I was made in God's image then my God has boobies...)

I'm sure that God (or whatever powers may be, i'm trying to be non-denominational here) already knew those things were gonna happen, or perhaps just knew there was a high probability of those things happening. Just like your parents know in advance that you're gonna do something stupid and are ready to mete out punishment as required. That's why He's called the Father (as archaic and perhaps sexist as that title may be).
If God works the same way as the multiverse (which He would because He would be just as much a part of it as us) then he would be able to see all times and all places simultaneously because all "times" and all "places" in the multiverse occur concurrently, and since God is probably dispersed as energy and force throughout all points.
And I think God with boobs is a wicked good idea.

[Xena]

Which is saying he somehow feels the need to account for the requests of Satan...one of his own creations, and yet, what you are saying is God says "Look...I'll show you!"
If I say "God show me lightning right now so that I may know you exist!"
It doesn't happen, but for Satan, God will obey and allow what Satan requests... (or answer as you call it)
Hmmm...

Look it's like this, Satan challenged god's sovereighship when he turned humans from god, now what do you think would have been wise? To kill satan and reset everyones memory so no one would know? or to have this issue settled once and for all time? after all, it could just happen again, so its best to get it settled. That is what the whole six thousand years of huminity have been about, man taking indipendance from god, seeing if we can rule ourselfs, which as you can see, we are not doing a good job. Do you not agree that this is the same? Just shutting satan up, would that answer the issue? If god just shut satan up, would'nt that just be god mis-using his power? Saying to Satan, You wrong, without ANY proof?

Uh. If something is probable, it kind of has to be possible...

I suppose so... bad choice of words on my part, I meant its concievable, but I doubt it will happen.

[Xaenn]

I don't see why an omniscient God would need to be able to see the future. Unless you believe the future is deterministic. Otherwise what will become has not yet been decided, so it is impossible to know.

I think it is foolish and arrogant to think that because we have learned so much in science that there is no limit to what we can know and do. It breeds the attitude that progress will resolve our problems, and we needn't worry about silly things like our finite number of resources. Unless you believe all humans will be as Gods one day, then clearly there is a limit to what is possible...Plus, you don't even know that time truly exists in a form that it can be manipulated as such.

Finally, the concept of the multiverse is FAR from proven.

[Xena]

I don't see why an omniscient God would need to be able to see the future. Unless you believe the future is deterministic. Otherwise what will become has not yet been decided, so it is impossible to know.

I think it is foolish and arrogant to think that because we have learned so much in science that there is no limit to what we can know and do. It breeds the attitude that progress will resolve our problems, and we needn't worry about silly things like our finite number of resources. Unless you believe all humans will be as Gods one day, then clearly there is a limit to what is possible...Plus, you don't even know that time truly exists in a form that it can be manipulated as such.

Finally, the concept of the multiverse is FAR from proven.

Well I do think god can, but does not always choose to use his powers, since he has a will, that is his own.

I agree with you on the science part

[McGuinty]

Finally, the concept of the multiverse is FAR from proven.

It's not 100% proven but there is a lot of convincing evidence out there. I know of one experiment that was done where they made a light diffraction pattern through a slot using only a single photon at a time. the only way photons can make a diffraction pattern is by interfering with other photons, but there was only a single photon passing through the slit at a time, so the only explanation is that other single photons made simultaneously in other universes were acting on the single photon in our universe to make the diffraction pattern.

Edit: oh and i totally agree with you about the finite resources. governments around the world are still operating on principles of infinite resources and money, which is why inflation is so bad because they're basically making money out of thin air on the stock market and through gov't deficit.

[Xaenn]

Well I do think god can, but does not always choose to use his powers, since he has a will, that is his own.

Then you accept determinism?

It's not 100% proven but there is a lot of convincing evidence out there. I know of one experiment that was done where they made a light diffraction pattern through a slot using only a single photon at a time. the only way photons can make a diffraction pattern is by interfering with other photons, but there was only a single photon passing through the slit at a time, so the only explanation is that other single photons made simultaneously in other universes were acting on the single photon in our universe to make the diffraction pattern.

I don't quite understand the reasoning there must be photons in another universe which are interfering. That implies interaction between these universes is common...

Wouldn't it be just as fair a theory that there is something else acting in our universe that is making the behavior act as such? Or perhaps that our scientific understanding is flawed?

To me it seems like a very big jump to conclue there is a multiverse from such behavior...

Edit:

oh and i totally agree with you about the finite resources. governments around the world are still operating on principles of infinite resources and money, which is why inflation is so bad because they're basically making money out of thin air on the stock market and through gov't deficit.

I was going to give you some rep but couldn't.

[Xena]

It's not 100% proven but there is a lot of convincing evidence out there. I know of one experiment that was done where they made a light diffraction pattern through a slot using only a single photon at a time. the only way photons can make a diffraction pattern is by interfering with other photons, but there was only a single photon passing through the slit at a time, so the only explanation is that other single photons made simultaneously in other universes were acting on the single photon in our universe to make the diffraction pattern.

I have to admit that knocked me back for a second, it was just the part about other universes. Yikes!

Then you accept determinism?

Elaborate a bit more please.

EDIT - Oh right, no I don't, also, why would that be connected to god not always chosing to use his powers, he DOES, just not always.

[Xaenn]

Elaborate a bit more please.

EDIT - Oh right, no I don't, also, why would that be connected to god not always chosing to use his powers, he DOES, just not always.

If the future is not already determined, then how can it possibly be known?

If one can know what you will do, then your actions are already determined.

[Xena]

If the future is not already determined, then how can it possibly be known?

If one can know what you will do, then your actions are already determined.

Thats easy, beacuse god can change anything, He has "set things in motion" that will happen. Like the destruction of Goverments, and the end of this system, and the paradise earth. You need to belive that though, or what is the point of religion? So our grand future is determind, just not every day little things.

Your second sentace is not really true is it? You can plan for a holiday, does'nt mean it's determind.

[McGuinty]

Then you accept determinism?


I don't quite understand the reasoning there must be photons in another universe which are interfering. That implies interaction between these universes is common...

Wouldn't it be just as fair a theory that there is something else acting in our universe that is making the behavior act as such? Or perhaps that our scientific understanding is flawed?

To me it seems like a very big jump to conclue there is a multiverse from such behavior...

Edit:


I was going to give you some rep but couldn't.

Interactions between mutiple universes would happen all the time but would be imperceptible without sensitive equipment. You do have a point that something in our own universe that hasn't been discovered yet may be acting on the photons, but at this point the best explanation is multiple universes. Science is kind of unimportant if you think about it. like you said, there will constantly be newer and better theories for physicists to throw around and they will laugh at how stupid they were to believe what they believed 10 or 20 years before.
the main reason i am pushing the multiverse theory is because i like it and it fits in nicely with my beliefs and my current perception. It is handy to me, just like your views are handy to you. i'm sorry for selling my beliefs as absolute truth, i saw that nobody had mentioned that theory and thought it might add another dimension to the discussion. but yes, our scientific understanding is definitely flawed, and it will never be perfect because we are flawed creatures.

hmm, couldn't quite buy you back with my economics speil, huh? oh well.

Edit: good point xena, nothing is determined.