Paladin_Hammer, don't forget Lend-Lease (The Soviet Army ran on Spam and American trucks, to some reports), the Arsenal of Democracy even before that (Well before American entry into the war, for example, they were giving away destroyers to Britain in exchange for temporary control over some useless bases they didn't especially need), pushing Germany and Italy out of Africa, and opening the so-called second-rate second-front (starting with Sicily and Anzio, for instance), which still succeeded in knocking one of the largest Axis powers out of the war and tying down German forces in the Alps and northern Italy.
I won't deny that we sent arms to Britian. Hitler was the Real threat in America's eyes. When Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, we were all stunned. Many did not know why Japan would attack the USA (at the time of course). Secondly, we fought in North Africa, Sicily, and Italy. We were alongside the British during all three campaign's. We were the ones who pushed into France, Patton and his thrid army showed that German asshole Goering the meaning of 'blitzkrieg', when he (Patton) took france in under three weeks. From then on, US forces pushed into Germany from the East while Russia took it from the West.
I'd like to use this moment to say that the only reason Russia lost so many lives was because of Stalin. After his take-over of the Communist party, Stalin became the most paranoid man alive. Anyone who could take a political stand against him was made an "Enemy of the State", which took many goods officers out of the Russia Army and put in incompetent officers in place. That's why Russia lost so many.
Ah, yes, the topic itself. Few people know that the Japanese attempted to
surrender several times, through the USSR and Sweden, neutral powers in the conflict between Japan and the Allies (Until 1945, when the Soviets finally declared war in an attempt to gain Manchuria, Korea, and the Kurils/Sakhalin Island for the final treaty...2.5 out of 4 wasn't so bad, actually). Many under Truman were already calling for peace, since the blockades were already successful in starving many on the islands. Ironically, while the terms of peace through the Soviets were clearly unacceptable, the Swedish offer (8 July, 1945, almost one month before Hiroshima on 6 August) would be accepted.
The Russian's didn't accept the Surrender of german soldiers, there's no way they'd take Japan's surrender. Sweden? They weren't even fighting. They surrendered to a nobody, not us. They kept fighting us. Why the hell did a surrender to a neutral country matter when they were still at war with us? They kept kamakazing us so Sweden mattered for shit.
Now, the million casualty figures touted for
Operations Olympic and Coronet are fairly unsurprising, and accurate. Japan had the manpower, and was trying its hardest to maintain the fanatical devotion of its soldiers to the Emperor. Civilians were being trained to use bamboo spears against the Americans, as example of the desperation. Basically, Olympic could have been best characterized as OMAHA reborn across the entire coastline, even if they weren't about to run into the same mistakes as Okinawa.
Couldn't agree more. The japanese people (as they were obligated to their emporer) would have fought us to the death. OMAHA would have been a shit-stain compared to the invasion of Japan.
I believe the nuclear detonations weren't necessary to force Japan to surrender, or to protect the lives of Americans and Japanese, but rather to stop the USSR. They had every intention of seizing every last inch of land they could to prevent a repeat of Barbarossa (Remember, Russian paranoia dates back to the Mongol invasion, and is rather justified considering what happens every time a decent-sized power like the Mongol Hordes, Poland-Lithuania, Sweden-Finland, Napoleonic France, Imperial Germany, or Nazi Germany ends up on their borders), the Japanese had already been trying to press against the Soviet Far East and Outer Mongolia (Look up Khalkin Ghol), and besides that, the Trans-Siberia Railroad was always vulnerable from the south and the entire Far East navy in Vladivostok could easily be sealed into the stretch of sea from Korea to Kamatchika so long as everything from the Kurils to Kyushu was held by a single foreign power or alliance. Soviet policy regarding the peace was to get as much land as possible for either direct annexation or satellite states, something completely unacceptable to the Allies who had just fought so hard to strike down another totalitarian power. The best way to force Stalin to back off was to show off the greatest new weapon in the Allied arsenal, by using it on two relatively untouched cities.
I think we should have dropped one on a Island within sight of the Japanese mainland and said "Look at this, now imagine what we could do with it." Stalin already knew about the A-bomb. He had spy's within our program, working side-by-side with the guys who built it.
Besides that,
Dresden had already been far worse. The Allied terror bombing there levelled the city entirely. Ironic that so many who condemn Hiroshima and Nagasaki virtually ignore the German losses. All of these bombings were basically to demoralize the Axis (With about as much success as the Axis terror bombing of London during the Battle of Britain) and, more importantly, to keep the Allies on parity with the Soviets, always just an alliance of convenience that all sides knew would not last a day after the final peace was signed.
True true. Anyone remember the Jews? That over 7 million died in death camps? You think America was all-wrong in WWII when we were the ones who put an end to the Nazi's (Russia was there too).
Oh, and on those who say we didn't want the war? In a sense, that's right, the American populace was very much inclined to ignore the world condition and maintain isolationism, but FDR and the administration was far-seeing enough to realize that if Western Europe and, later, even the USSR fell, America could not stand alone against a hostile world, and neither Germany nor Japan could tolerate them forever (Too powerful for Germany to tolerate and the last of the humiliators at Versailles...remember, Hitler did speak a bit on the humiliation of Versailles, and squarely in the path of Japanese expansion southward thanks to the Philippines and Guam, where they could not afford to leave a hole in their lines). Why do you believe FDR pushed the Arsenal of Democracy so strongly, or directly and intentionally antagonized the Japanese by slapping an oil embargo on them (America, remember, was a net exporter of petrol until the 70's)? Why do you think America deployed their full force against Germany first, rather than the nation that had already sucker-punched them and directly upset the people? Because FDR knew the greater threat was always in Europe, and Japan could not stand up against America because they were too overextended in China, the East Indies, and the Pacific.
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Gah, I beat Smith. I feel like I've wasted so much time, now...
Originally Posted by Zephyr
Paladin_Hammer, don't forget Lend-Lease (The Soviet Army ran on Spam and American trucks, to some reports), the Arsenal of Democracy even before that (Well before American entry into the war, for example, they were giving away destroyers to Britain in exchange for temporary control over some useless bases they didn't especially need), pushing Germany and Italy out of Africa, and opening the so-called second-rate second-front (starting with Sicily and Anzio, for instance), which still succeeded in knocking one of the largest Axis powers out of the war and tying down German forces in the Alps and northern Italy.
knowitman|
