Bombs and Stuff

[Dingy]

Ok someone please explain to me how �bombing the two cities had saved the future death of so many millions�. I simply don�t understand that.
How can you so confidently justify the death of millions with the presupposition of the hypothetical situation of �future lives/deaths�?
Its so easy isn�t it? To say that the US ended the war, the US stopped Japan from attacking further. But why aren�t we asking questions like, did it really end the war (for those who answer �no��please remember something called the �cold war�), did it save any lives (again for those who deny, remember something called- �Vietnam�).

How do you propose we take these prisoners? These people were told (and did) fight to the death. They hopped in planes loaded with explosives and only enough fuel for a one way trip. Not exactly pacifists.... read the Okinawa thing. 10000 Japanese commited suicide rather than be captured....

I think Madcrow meant that if there was a choice he believes it would be wiser not to kill, but I never knew that they killed themselves and stuff, interesting.

We sorta did. Ever heard of Little Man, or Fat Man? The two bombs we used of course. But on par with the japanese who surivived Hiroshima and Nagasaki, those who survived had massive burns and became sterile. 250,000 died due to radiation. Remember something Dingy and all other US haters, we never wanted that war, we stayed out so long that Great Britian could hardly assist when we took Germany (they were beaten up pretty badly). But hell, the brits are one tough-assed people. America would have not survived if it faced the same Air-War the Brits did.

Stop being so proud of causing death. It�s not a nice quality to have atleast in the eyes of us humans
I don�t hate the US, Paladin. I will not repeat myself on that, is that clearly understood or not? Simply b/c someone points a negative aspect of your governmental policy doesn�t automatically make them a threat/anti-America/America hater/terrorist/fundamentalist/freedom hater/etc.
How can you say �you never wanted war�, yes that does mean that you didn�t want to be on the receiving end of it but that doesn�t directly mean that it gives you the God-given right to nuke hundred thousands.
Britain was asking for your help for a long time, but you didn�t help, not until you had a direct vested interest in it. Therefore America�s claims to fighting wars for peace and to end the scourge and terror of war are quite invalid. You have to be able to fight against America to be able to continue a war, that doesn�t end the war, it gives more ammunition to these countries to take revenge.

[Kosmo Yagkoto]

War is war. If they didn't want a piece of the US then they shouldn't have Pearl Harbor'd us. Now they know better. US wanted a quick end to a brutal war. About the US not wanting to be in the war, i think it was a mistake to wait how long we did. Now we have a leader who doesn't take any crap....not some dude with polio. But realistically, we can't blame the US for how long WWII lasted. We should really blame the French for fighting like girls.

[Dingy]

War is war. If they didn't want a piece of the US then they shouldn't have Pearl Harbor'd us. Now they know better. US wanted a quick end to a brutal war. About the US not wanting to be in the war, i think it was a mistake to wait how long we did. Now we have a leader who doesn't take any crap....not some dude with polio. But realistically, we can't blame the US for how long WWII lasted. We should really blame the French for fighting like girls.

Your post has reflected such bigotry its hard to believe that you are an educated sane person. "Some dude with polio"?? Trow if Bush loses his legs, will he lose his high position in your eyes.
"for fighting like girls"??Seriously dude, you and me...anytime, just pay for my ticket, I'll kick your butt to France, where you'll learn that girls can fight, sometimes better than predujiced men.
Jeez, the US did NOT end the war, signing of treaties does not end the war...have you heard of the 'cold war'?

[Kosmo Yagkoto]

I used "dude with polio" because i have very little respect for the man. I have lost all respect for the French, especially since they were giving money to Saddam in the oil for food scandal. I doubt any girl,with the exception of those women bodybuilders....maybe, could beat me up. The Cold war was more of a face off than a war. But seriuosly though, without the US, Europe would be speaking German....maybe not literally but you know what i mean.

[Xaenn]

I doubt any girl,with the exception of those women bodybuilders....maybe, could beat me up.

You gotta remember fighting isn't all about strength. I'm sure there are many skilled female martial artists that could beat the living shit outta me.

[Deach]

I used "dude with polio" because i have very little respect for the man. I have lost all respect for the French, especially since they were giving money to Saddam in the oil for food scandal. I doubt any girl,with the exception of those women bodybuilders....maybe, could beat me up. The Cold war was more of a face off than a war. But seriuosly though, without the US, Europe would be speaking German....maybe not literally but you know what i mean.

Call Ziegfried gay or something. Ruby would kill you.

[Kosmo Yagkoto]

Call Ziegfried gay or something. Ruby would kill you.

I am terrified of Ziegfried.....what an awesome power he is.

[Skinner8]

I am terrified of Ziegfried.....what an awesome power he is.

My sarcasm sense is tingling. You will be destroyed.

[Kosmo Yagkoto]

Sir i am going to need you to turn in your deputy badge.

[Skinner8]

Sir i am going to need you to turn in your deputy badge.

No, but I'll gladly turn in this PERM BAN. Now stop dragging me off-topic.

[Paladin_Hammer]

Mr Paladin Hammer, the US in no way took Germany.The US defeated Japan, an aspect which helped, certainly, but didn't take Germany. It was all the USSR. The USSR who weren't aided in any way during the sieges, who were supposed to be destroyed by Germany, the way the capitalist countries wanted it. That's why appeasement survived. "Let the extremes kill each other."
That didn't happen. The USSR survived, and stormed across Europe, and took Germany. The war in Africa was a bullshit way of getting out of facing Germany, and the amount of other European troops shoved there for no reason was stupid.
Also, you say that "we never wanted that war." Jack the Ripper, I'm sure, never wanted to be sexually aroused by the mutiliation of women, but he did it, and the fact that he did makes him answerable to his crimes. The same applies to the US.

Wait. Your telling me that we never invaded normandy? That the Battle of the Buldge never took place? That over 300,000 US Servicemen didn't die in Europe? What book are you reading out of? Sure, the USSR gave up more than 3 million lives in Europe. But that was all due to Stalins fear that his military would turn on him. He got rid of his best officers because he thought they'd tyrun on him.

Are you also sayiong that we didn't wait until being attacked by Japan that we went to war? You sir, are a dumbass.

[Kosmo Yagkoto]

It's good to know you condone the deaths of 350,000 civilans. Good for you.

Don't blame the US for that. Blame the people who were in charge of Japan at the time and thought that siding with a lunatic was a good idea.

[Ninja Kurosai]

Do you know the horrors of Atomic Bombs? Or the horror of actual warfare? Its kinda hard to decide whether it was a good or bad choice. You actually never know what could have happened if we had not dropped the bomb, so anything we say is nothing but mere theory. The only thing we could do know is learn from it so as not to be in a situation like it again...

[Mistral]

Paladin_Hammer, don't forget Lend-Lease (The Soviet Army ran on Spam and American trucks, to some reports), the Arsenal of Democracy even before that (Well before American entry into the war, for example, they were giving away destroyers to Britain in exchange for temporary control over some useless bases they didn't especially need), pushing Germany and Italy out of Africa, and opening the so-called second-rate second-front (starting with Sicily and Anzio, for instance), which still succeeded in knocking one of the largest Axis powers out of the war and tying down German forces in the Alps and northern Italy.

Ah, yes, the topic itself. Few people know that the Japanese attempted to surrender several times, through the USSR and Sweden, neutral powers in the conflict between Japan and the Allies (Until 1945, when the Soviets finally declared war in an attempt to gain Manchuria, Korea, and the Kurils/Sakhalin Island for the final treaty...2.5 out of 4 wasn't so bad, actually). Many under Truman were already calling for peace, since the blockades were already successful in starving many on the islands. Ironically, while the terms of peace through the Soviets were clearly unacceptable, the Swedish offer (8 July, 1945, almost one month before Hiroshima on 6 August) would be accepted.

Now, the million casualty figures touted for Operations Olympic and Coronet are fairly unsurprising, and accurate. Japan had the manpower, and was trying its hardest to maintain the fanatical devotion of its soldiers to the Emperor. Civilians were being trained to use bamboo spears against the Americans, as example of the desperation. Basically, Olympic could have been best characterized as OMAHA reborn across the entire coastline, even if they weren't about to run into the same mistakes as Okinawa.

I believe the nuclear detonations weren't necessary to force Japan to surrender, or to protect the lives of Americans and Japanese, but rather to stop the USSR. They had every intention of seizing every last inch of land they could to prevent a repeat of Barbarossa (Remember, Russian paranoia dates back to the Mongol invasion, and is rather justified considering what happens every time a decent-sized power like the Mongol Hordes, Poland-Lithuania, Sweden-Finland, Napoleonic France, Imperial Germany, or Nazi Germany ends up on their borders), the Japanese had already been trying to press against the Soviet Far East and Outer Mongolia (Look up Khalkin Ghol), and besides that, the Trans-Siberia Railroad was always vulnerable from the south and the entire Far East navy in Vladivostok could easily be sealed into the stretch of sea from Korea to Kamatchika so long as everything from the Kurils to Kyushu was held by a single foreign power or alliance. Soviet policy regarding the peace was to get as much land as possible for either direct annexation or satellite states, something completely unacceptable to the Allies who had just fought so hard to strike down another totalitarian power. The best way to force Stalin to back off was to show off the greatest new weapon in the Allied arsenal, by using it on two relatively untouched cities.

Besides that, Dresden had already been far worse. The Allied terror bombing there levelled the city entirely. Ironic that so many who condemn Hiroshima and Nagasaki virtually ignore the German losses. All of these bombings were basically to demoralize the Axis (With about as much success as the Axis terror bombing of London during the Battle of Britain) and, more importantly, to keep the Allies on parity with the Soviets, always just an alliance of convenience that all sides knew would not last a day after the final peace was signed.

Oh, and on those who say we didn't want the war? In a sense, that's right, the American populace was very much inclined to ignore the world condition and maintain isolationism, but FDR and the administration was far-seeing enough to realize that if Western Europe and, later, even the USSR fell, America could not stand alone against a hostile world, and neither Germany nor Japan could tolerate them forever (Too powerful for Germany to tolerate and the last of the humiliators at Versailles...remember, Hitler did speak a bit on the humiliation of Versailles, and squarely in the path of Japanese expansion southward thanks to the Philippines and Guam, where they could not afford to leave a hole in their lines). Why do you believe FDR pushed the Arsenal of Democracy so strongly, or directly and intentionally antagonized the Japanese by slapping an oil embargo on them (America, remember, was a net exporter of petrol until the 70's)? Why do you think America deployed their full force against Germany first, rather than the nation that had already sucker-punched them and directly upset the people? Because FDR knew the greater threat was always in Europe, and Japan could not stand up against America because they were too overextended in China, the East Indies, and the Pacific.

...
Gah, I beat Smith. I feel like I've wasted so much time, now...

[Paul Miller]

Gah, I beat Smith. I feel like I've wasted so much time, now...

Ouch I'll get back to reading this thread when I get some time.... but it looks like good stuff. Seems I'll be learning some things, and that might change my view on the situation.