The Gare and Elin Translate It Out: keikaku means plan

[gezegond]

@Raype: Hmm, I guess I kinda get what you're saying now. You mean all technology (or at least these two) are gimmicky when they're first introduced but they get better as they are better implemented?

Then, 3D and Discs were good technology. There was just some time where game developers were not fully using them in the best possible way. Which is actually natural, you can't expect them to suddenly be enlightened about the true capabilities of discs or 3D. It takes time. That doesn't mean the technology itself is bad.

I guess, only time can tell whether some technology is good or not. If the motion sensors become a good part of games and truly enhance the experience, then I guess I have to admit they were good technology regardless of how its implemented today.

I still think Discs were one of the most important technologies in computers. The link I sent you shows how different they are compared to magnetic tapes or ROMs or even flash memory (though I think flash memory is a wonderful technology as well, they're just not using it to its full capabilities right now). And at least it was new technology back then, compared to wiimote which was just a recycling of old arcade motion sensors. (It's just an IR emitter bundled with old fashioned accelerometers.)

[Raype]

It occurs to me now that pretty much every disc based console in the 90's launched with Doom.

Doom. That game you could play on an SNES.

The 90's were crazy like that.

[gezegond]

It occurs to me now that pretty much every disc based console in the 90's launched with Doom.

Doom. That game you could play on an SNES.

The 90's were crazy like that.

But on CDs it had teh awesome muziks of horror and pain.

[gezegond]

btw guys, demonoid is back.

[Raype]

@Raype: Hmm, I guess I kinda get what you're saying now. You mean all technology (or at least these two) are gimmicky when they're first introduced but they get better as they are better implemented?

Then, 3D and Discs were good technology. There was just some time where game developers were not fully using them in the best possible way. Which is actually natural, you can't expect them to suddenly be enlightened about the true capabilities of discs or 3D. It takes time. That doesn't mean the technology itself is bad.

I guess, only time can tell whether some technology is good or not. If the motion sensors become a good part of games and truly enhance the experience, then I guess I have to admit they were good technology regardless of how its implemented today.

I still think Discs were one of the most important technologies in computers. The link I sent you shows how different they are compared to magnetic tapes or ROMs or even flash memory (though I think flash memory is a wonderful technology as well, they're just not using it to its full capabilities right now). And at least it was new technology back then, compared to wiimote which was just a recycling of old arcade motion sensors. (It's just an IR emitter bundled with old fashioned accelerometers.)

More or less. Any "jump" is a gradual improvement that takes a long, long time. It's a building thing. There were a lot of consoles released between the SNES and the PSX. Most of them shit. And then when the PSX launched, it was shit. Then that changed over several years.

It doesn't, and I didn't say it was. Although there are a hell of a lot of examples where it was. But it's the same today. Technology just gradually increases. You can't compare this generation to much of anything until we actually see some quality product. As console launches go, this one is shaping up to be one of the best, and the tech shows loads of promise. Being down on it seems hilariously silly given that compared to the last gen this is a huge improvement. And that one wasn't even that bad, people just see it that way because the previous gen was pretty great and still cranking out quality product right up til the end. It managed to bypass a lot of the awkward years the PSX/N64 went through and, similarly, the PS3/360/Wii did.

In computers, yes. But then again so was the invention of the OS, SATA, multi core processors, vaccuum tubes, the mouse, microchips, etc. etc. Computers have been growing by leaps and bounds almost since their inception and almost everything that happens winds up totally revolutionizing the whole thing within a couple years. If it wasn't CDs, it'd be something else. The modern optical disc was a byproduct of the need for advancement, not the cause.

Discs were important for consoles, but it's not really the discs themselves. If people just shoved HDDs into their consoles earlier (and the internet was as robust then as it is now) we'd probably be full digital by now. Hell we're moving that way as it is. Games these days have hundreds of gigabytes and even a terabyte or two to work with if they aren't limiting themselves to disc based media. And even then, the jump to BRD (or the Nintendo knockoff version) is bound to have pretty neat repercussions now that DVD is finally put out to pasture. Having over 10 times the space to work with is a pretty big jump for developers, and that's not factoring in that we can go multi-disc now. It's not really the tech itself anyway. Again, a lot of early disc based systems used discs for the sake of using discs, and so they can be all "LOOK, DISCS! LASERS! IT'S THE FUTURE! NOT LIKE THAT NINTENDON'T DO CDS! SHIT CHECK OUT THIS SEWER SHARK GAME BRO, PHOTOREALISTIC AS FUCKBALLS". Instead it's how it's used. Those early disc based systems never used even a fraction of the potential, and there's barely any games out there now that fill up a multi-layered BRD (which can hold the entire N64 library a half dozen times over). All the tech in the world doesn't really mean squat if the games aren't good. And the games are pretty damned good right now. So I'm not about to turn up my nose at this generation just because of some supposed inability to live up to what came before. Because, if anything, it's a hell of a lot better than a good chunk of it.

Also, the 3DS is shaping up to be a physical game-less media along with the Vita. And PC gaming has been that way forever (look for a PC gamer with a couple boxes on his shelf. They're practically unheard of). So really discs are just a means to an end. More space and another way to get you the code. Selling a system based on the media it plays is like selling a car based upon which courier service moved the parts.

[gezegond]

http://www.cad-comic.com/cad/20130621/

[Raype]

I don't get it. Is the puny human in favour of the Xbone or against it?

In any event, I don't think a creepy pedophile who writes a self insert comic where he's still dating his (now moved on and happily married) ex is in any way the sort of person we should be taking advice from.

[Raype]

Also,

RAPE CULTURE, GAY BASHING, OMG HOW CAN HE TRIVIALIZE MOLESTATION LIKE THAT IT'S SO WRONG.

Maybe I should post this somewhere and make some crazy people implode with rage.

[gezegond]

@Raype: But... But... They didn't release any good technology this Gen. So CDs took 7 years to be implemented in a good way? Motion sensors have been here for around 8 years, where are my awesome wii motion games?

By this generation do you mean 7th or 8th? I'm talking about 7th (PS3, 360, Wii), I won't make comments on a generation that hasn't even fully arrived yet.

For 7th Gen, I'm a bit dissatisfied with it because there were the possibility of new better technologies (for instance in AI), but most of the best sellers ended up being higher resolution versions of gen6 games. (like Halo and Call of Duty)
I guess it's sorta true for Gen5&6 as well with all the marios and clones, but I just remember more innovative games from before than Gen7.

This isn't accurate at all because I'm just estimating, so I will one day take my time and find games that were innovative in my opinion from the entire game history, and then I would have numbers to work with. (It's gonna take a lot of time though)

[gezegond]

I don't get it. Is the puny human in favour of the Xbone or against it?

One of them is Microsoft and the other one represents the consumers I think.

Maybe I should post this somewhere and make some crazy people implode with rage.

Please do.

[Jazzmarazz]

More or less. Any "jump" is a gradual improvement that takes a long, long time. It's a building thing. There were a lot of consoles released between the SNES and the PSX. Most of them shit. And then when the PSX launched, it was shit. Then that changed over several years.

It doesn't, and I didn't say it was. Although there are a hell of a lot of examples where it was. But it's the same today. Technology just gradually increases. You can't compare this generation to much of anything until we actually see some quality product. As console launches go, this one is shaping up to be one of the best, and the tech shows loads of promise. Being down on it seems hilariously silly given that compared to the last gen this is a huge improvement. And that one wasn't even that bad, people just see it that way because the previous gen was pretty great and still cranking out quality product right up til the end. It managed to bypass a lot of the awkward years the PSX/N64 went through and, similarly, the PS3/360/Wii did.

In computers, yes. But then again so was the invention of the OS, SATA, multi core processors, vaccuum tubes, the mouse, microchips, etc. etc. Computers have been growing by leaps and bounds almost since their inception and almost everything that happens winds up totally revolutionizing the whole thing within a couple years. If it wasn't CDs, it'd be something else. The modern optical disc was a byproduct of the need for advancement, not the cause.

Discs were important for consoles, but it's not really the discs themselves. If people just shoved HDDs into their consoles earlier (and the internet was as robust then as it is now) we'd probably be full digital by now. Hell we're moving that way as it is. Games these days have hundreds of gigabytes and even a terabyte or two to work with if they aren't limiting themselves to disc based media. And even then, the jump to BRD (or the Nintendo knockoff version) is bound to have pretty neat repercussions now that DVD is finally put out to pasture. Having over 10 times the space to work with is a pretty big jump for developers, and that's not factoring in that we can go multi-disc now. It's not really the tech itself anyway. Again, a lot of early disc based systems used discs for the sake of using discs, and so they can be all "LOOK, DISCS! LASERS! IT'S THE FUTURE! NOT LIKE THAT NINTENDON'T DO CDS! SHIT CHECK OUT THIS SEWER SHARK GAME BRO, PHOTOREALISTIC AS FUCKBALLS". Instead it's how it's used. Those early disc based systems never used even a fraction of the potential, and there's barely any games out there now that fill up a multi-layered BRD (which can hold the entire N64 library a half dozen times over). All the tech in the world doesn't really mean squat if the games aren't good. And the games are pretty damned good right now. So I'm not about to turn up my nose at this generation just because of some supposed inability to live up to what came before. Because, if anything, it's a hell of a lot better than a good chunk of it.

Also, the 3DS is shaping up to be a physical game-less media along with the Vita. And PC gaming has been that way forever (look for a PC gamer with a couple boxes on his shelf. They're practically unheard of). So really discs are just a means to an end. More space and another way to get you the code. Selling a system based on the media it plays is like selling a car based upon which courier service moved the parts.

Hah, I liked this one.

[Jazzmarazz]

The entirety of it.

[Raype]

@Raype: But... But... They didn't release any good technology this Gen. So CDs took 7 years to be implemented in a good way? Motion sensors have been here for around 8 years, where are my awesome wii motion games?

Only 7? The first CD console came out in '88. It was closer to a decade. A lot closer. And it took several different CD based consoles. You won't find much good in terms of Wii motion based games. Mostly rail shooters and the like. Pretty much the same with the Move and Kinect (although the latter is a lot less poorly implemented than the Wii's motion controller). Kinect had Steel Batallion 3, which was awesome. Or would have been if the Kinect wasn't terribad at reading motion and a steaming pile of shit. We'll see how the improvements in the next generation go.

By this generation do you mean 7th or 8th? I'm talking about 7th (PS3, 360, Wii), I won't make comments on a generation that hasn't even fully arrived yet.

For 7th Gen, I'm a bit dissatisfied with it because there were the possibility of new better technologies (for instance in AI), but most of the best sellers ended up being higher resolution versions of gen6 games. (like Halo and Call of Duty)
I guess it's sorta true for Gen5&6 as well with all the marios and clones, but I just remember more innovative games from before than Gen7.

This isn't accurate at all because I'm just estimating, so I will one day take my time and find games that were innovative in my opinion from the entire game history, and then I would have numbers to work with. (It's gonna take a lot of time though)

Again, that's always been the case. I could link to a PS1 ad that shows launch titles like Battle Arena Toshenden (Killer Instinct if it fucked Virtua Fighter), Mortal Kombat 3 (the same one I played on the fucking Genesis) and Ridge Racer (oh look, it's Outrun!). But I'm being too mean, I mean the Saturn had Daytona. And Bomberman. And another port of Duke Nukem 3D because the 32X never happened apparently.

Best selling, it gets worse. On the PSX it's Gran Turismo, yet another FF ( 7 which majorly rehashed 6) and the second Tomb Raider (since the first came out on the Saturn). PS2? More Gran Turismo, Grand Theft Auto (which was a PSX/PC game) and a couple Final Fantasies and Metal Gears to round it out (all Gen 5 or older, Metal Gear going all the way back to the MSX ). Gamecube? Smash Bros (sequel to an oft forgotten N64 game), Mario, Zelda, Metroid, blah blah blah.

If you aren't seeing the AI improvements from Gen 6 to Gen 7 you really aren't playing that many games or paying that much attention. The AI is leagues ahead of what it was in the previous gen. Back then they had to do a lot more scripting to give the illusion of AI. Now it's a lot more based around actual AI. I can't begin to count the number of games where you had to "trick" AI or use some technique to disorient or confuse them. FPS enemies will use some pretty nice tactics to flank/outsmart you. And because of it two goes at the same group of enemies can yield hugely different results. That never really happened in the previous gen. A lot of games had "run at you shooting" AI or ones that were scripted to take cover here or stand over there or what have you. It's a small touch, but definitely noticeable. Never mind the number of onscreen active AI being way, way higher now. You really couldn't run Assassin's Creed in the GTAA engine. It just....wouldn't work.

You always had to look for innovation. High cost AAA game development has always appealed to the masses which means lowest common denominator game design meant to be safe and accessible. It's like movies. Summer blockbusters have always been drivel. You gotta look beyond it to find something smart usually. Just because you're not seeing it doesn't mean it's not there. I, for instance, have been trying to find some free time to finish Ni No Kuni, before that I was pulling a Deus Ex speed run, which I believe happened sometime after helping my girlfriend clear up some trophies on Catherine and Skyrim, and I've been offsetting that by learning to play guitar by playing a goddamn videogame. I've been thinking about using my PS+ to get around to playing XCom or co-oping Saint's Row 3. If I don't start Peace Walker or Mass Effect first. Meanwhile a friend has plans of roping me into doing that new Resident Evil thing. I count a new IP JRPG with monster raising, a stealth heavy FPS RPG, a puzzle game with a dating sim thrown in, a fantasy WRPG, an RTS with a management sim, an open world driving game, a music game, a base-managing TPS/stealth game, a science fiction shooter/RPG hybrid, and a survival horror game. I don't really see how there isn't an interesting variety of vastly different games out there sporting huge innovations or impressive tweaks on an existing formula.

[Ace Ventura]

It's a sad sad day when your girlfriend beats you in CoD. And gets to round 35 in Zombies without any help. My God. Dx

[Raype]

Also, if we're purely talking tech, this is the first gen where HDDs were standard and the online service was a huge deal. Which I pointed out earlier.

I can, at this moment, hop onto my PS3 and play any game I want. Then one of my friends can be all "want to go smash some goblin heads in?" and I can, seamlessly, jump right into their game and proceed to crack skulls with them. That was completely unheard of before this console generation. And if you bring up that PCs already had that I will rather violently facepalm. The point here is that as far as consoles are concerned this had a huge, huge impact on how we play games. Multiplayer became front and center. It's no wonder those "Halos and Call of Dutys" became mainstays. They're just really good games for pointing out what this generation brought to the table tech wise. A system and setup that allows you to play with friends all over the world at any point in time regardless of where they are. As someone who dabbles in fighting games, this was a huge deal since fighting games are incredibly pointless if you play alone. As such, I rarely bought them legit and they didn't have much staying power. I'll buy a new fighting game at full retail right this minute, seeing as I can spend the wee hours of the morning punching asians in the face. This is not something to underrestimate. Unless you own a Wii, in which case, god help you. The Wii is way behind the curve in more ways than one. Which was fine, since they weren't marketing to me. They were marketing to my sister, my mother, and my younger cousins. All of whom are probably totally cool with what they have in front of them.