The Gare and Elin Translate It Out: keikaku means plan

[Shane]

Hey, Drageuth.

[Warrior]

Fun fact: the colloqual/shortened version of my real name is "Geri", and it also means diarrhea in Japanese. I think I got fucked over by fate real hard.

Oh man, thats awesome and sad at the same time

No offense ol bean, im just joking

[Shane]

Oh man, thats awesome and sad at the same time

No offense ol bean, im just joking

Hi, God of Battle!

[Warrior]

Hi Shane!

[Nemkoon]

GREAT MAZINGER!

[Elin]

We have similar sounding words in all languages.

Not nearly as many as in Japanese. Japanese has a very small amount of sounds compared to English, and indeed most languages. The vast majority of combinations of sounds in the language can mean multiple things, some more than five different things. I'm a native speaker of English, and I speak Japanese relatively well, so you can trust me when I say that the two are not remotely on the same level at all when it comes to homophones.

Which is not to say that kanji are necessary for every language, of course. Scrapping Chinese characters worked for Korean. But it worked there because Korean has a much larger amount of sounds (and hence sound combinations) than Japanese. It wouldn't go nearly as well in Japanese. And even then, Korean still often uses Chinese characters for legal documents, textbooks, etc... to avoid confusion.

They use over 9000 symbols because they don't use spaces.

Nope. They use kanji because it makes the language far easier to read, spaces or no, and because Japanese would be substantially more confusing and difficult without them than with them, both for native speakers and non-natives. Also, about 3500 is enough to read anything outside of ancient texts. Most native speakers won't know many more than that, and some will know less. 9000 is a ridiculous estimate even for a Chinese speaker, nevermind a Japanese one.

But still I find it quite redundant. If the Japanese would stop learning kanji and use that time to do something more productive, I bet their GDP would go up significantly.

Believe me, you're not the first to suggest that Japan scrap kanji, and you won't be the last. I was the same. :'D But the idea has been discussed by many people both inside and outside of Japan, and the fact that they haven't scrapped them yet is kind of evidence to the fact that they're completely necessary to making Japanese a viable written language. The only people who complain about kanji, by my experience, are those who either haven't studied the language very much, or who have studied and failed. Anyone who learns Japanese to anything beyond an introductory level learns very quickly that kanji are absolutely crucial to the language functioning correctly.

Also, it's kind of strange to be insisting that kanji are inefficient and blocking the spread of Japanese as a world language when you look at the example of English. English spelling is far, far less efficient and logical than kanji is, being full of rules that make absolutely no sense, and words which often require learners to learn their pronunciation on a case by case basis. Worse, while you can make an argument for the utility of kanji, there is no such argument to be made for the craziness of English spelling. It's completely unnecessary. We could invent another ten or fifteen characters for the alphabet to cover our large sound palette, and have a written language that is completely logical and phonetic, but we insist on inflicting the difficulty of painful, illogical spelling on the world's population. As far as I've noticed, it hasn't exactly hindered the progression of English as a world language.

[Elin]

I wrote a lot in my last post, so...

Yes, but from an objective point of view, does this justify all the time one should put in learning Kanji?

Yes. Very yes.

And I believe that while they do read it like that, people can change and become efficient at a different way of writing fairly quickly.

It works for some languages like Korean. It wouldn't work for Japanese, nor Chinese for that matter.

Turkey for instance, used arabic letters for writing before Ataturk. Ataturk changed the written language to use roman letters. Now people read em as fast as they would read arabic letters, or maybe even faster. Notice that the spoken language didn't change, just the writing system.

A change from one alphabet to another is far, far different to a change from ideograms to just an alphabet. Scrapping kanji and scrapping Arabic characters are not remotely the same thing.

I'd say they can come up with a significantly more efficient writing system both in learning and in communicating sentences if they wanted to...

It's true they could probably come up with a more efficient type of ideogram, just as English could come up with a more efficient type of alphabet. But you'd still need to learn a couple of thousand characters. An alphabet only system would not work for Japanese. Not now, not ever.

[Elin]

I want it.

Me too. ;____;

[Shane]

Me too. ;____;

... Sadly, seeing that kitten brings back sad memories for me

[gezegond]

@Elin: Okay, I am now convinced. I didn't really put much thought on the amount of sound they can make.

We could invent another ten or fifteen characters for the alphabet to cover our large sound palette, and have a written language that is completely logical and phonetic, but we insist on inflicting the difficulty of painful, illogical spelling on the world's population. As far as I've noticed, it hasn't exactly hindered the progression of English as a world language.

Yeah, you should totally do that. Believe me my own language is worse than English, and maybe even Japanese, so I think EVERYONE should make their writings easier.

You see, I'm a programmer, and computer languages have been evolving since they existed. People make up entire new languages just to make it more understandable, and easier to use.

I just can't see why the same shouldn't be done with regular languages? Why don't they make one that is easier to use?

I would totally gather all the sounds everyone in the world can make and make a single alphabet set that could represent any language.

Oh, and btw

Also, about 3500 is enough to read anything outside of ancient texts. Most native speakers won't know many more than that, and some will know less. 9000 is a ridiculous estimate even for a Chinese speaker, nevermind a Japanese one.

I didn't mean that literally. Over 9000 is just an internet meme which basically means "a hell lot".

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...term=over+9000

[Nemkoon]

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Super Robots

[Zaladane]

I want cereal. But I'm out of milk. And it's really raining out and don't want to go. And since I can't go I really really want cereal now. Life sucks.

[Zaladane]

OH MY GOD ELMDOR AND TON WERE HERE!!!!!!

Goes back to grumbling about cereal.

[Zaladane]

[Elin]

@Elin: Okay, I am now convinced. I didn't really put much thought on the amount of sound they can make.

Like I say, it would work for some languages. Vietnamese and Korean both did away with Chinese characters without problem. But it wouldn't work for Chinese or Japanese. Chinese characters have stuck around as long as they have in those two languages for good reason.

Actually, there was a move by the Chinese Communist Party to do away with Chinese characters shortly after they came to power. They suggested that Chinese characters oppressed the people by making it too hard for them to read. The plans were scrapped after research suggested that it was quite the opposite, and that Chinese became even harder without them. Eventually, they opted to just simplify lots of characters.

Yeah, you should totally do that. Believe me my own language is worse than English, and maybe even Japanese, so I think EVERYONE should make their writings easier.

My point wasn't that we should keep English spelling intact. It was that your suggestion that kanji are getting in the way of Japanese being learned by more people is misguided when you look at something like the difficulties of English spelling (arguably just as difficult and time consuming as kanji, and far less practical) versus the amount of people who have learned English to fluency.

You see, I'm a programmer, and computer languages have been evolving since they existed. People make up entire new languages just to make it more understandable, and easier to use.

The trouble with making up languages is that compared to a real language, they have none of the culture, none of the history, none of the beauty, none of the wealth of art in the language... They're cold, impersonal, and... well... machine-like. Of course with continued and widespread use, they'd eventually develop all of that. But they'd also develop the quirks and illogical points of any natural language. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) humans can't be like machines and use a completely logical, organised language for very long.

I just can't see why the same shouldn't be done with regular languages? Why don't they make one that is easier to use?

People have, most notably Esperanto, which was designed as a universal second language, and which has very simple and flexible grammar, completely phonetic pronunciation, etc... I definitely agree with and appreciate the concept, even if Esperanto itself wasn't perfect (for one thing, the guy who created it only had deep knowledge of about five languages, all European, and it has a major bias towards speakers of European languages).

I would totally gather all the sounds everyone in the world can make and make a single alphabet set that could represent any language.

This has been done too, with the international phonetic alphabet, which is used in linguistics and suchlike.

I didn't mean that literally. Over 9000 is just an internet meme which basically means "a hell lot".

Haha, I thought as much after I posted, but I do regularly hear claims that you need to learn upwards of ten or fifteen thousand characters to be fluent in Japanese, which is just nonsense.