EU Court of Justice Rules Digital Resale Bans Illegal

[Slacker Magician]

Yeah I don't get it either. HURRRR huge Steam sale! Uh okay? So the games are more inline with internet prices on physical copies? That's cool.

The only reason I can see for getting them is if you don't have easy access to physical copies but still want to support the companies by buying games new.

If a $5 knockoff on used games at Gamestop is ripping people off, you may as well pay the full new price at GStop or any other retailer carrying it .

[Gypsy]

I'd say another retailer carrying it and you know why but I don't really want to open up that discussion again.

For all the grief Gamestop gets about killing the industry from some people (because used games are evil) they really do encourage you to buy new. When they have common price splits of 60/55, 40/36, 30/27 and 20/18 why would you not buy new?

[gezegond]

That means that if the companies want profit, they have to make games that people would actually want to keep. That's good news to me. It encourages companies to release quality games. You can't buy used games if people aren't selling their copies.

[Slacker Magician]

Does this include DLC?

[Colamisu]

I don't know why anyone bothers buying digital copies new, they're the same or slightly less than a physical copy.

Not every game comes in a physical copy. For a lot of companies, it's much more feasible to do no boxed copy since they don't have to pay the prices for printing, disc stamping, materials, etc.

Yeah I don't get it either. HURRRR huge Steam sale! Uh okay? So the games are more inline with internet prices on physical copies? That's cool.

The only reason I can see for getting them is if you don't have easy access to physical copies but still want to support the companies by buying games new.

Not really right on the prices there. HURR HUGE STEAM SALE, get something for 75% off of retail price. Even if you get it at a marked down price at a retailer, you're going to be paying more than 25% for most games, especially the popular ones that people actually buy when they go on sale.

Example: Borderlands GOTY went on sale for $7.50. No tax. $22.50 for a four pack, translating to about $5.50 per person if you can find three other people to buy into it/play with you. The only places you can find that price for a physical copy online are shady sites that I wouldn't trust. In a brick and mortar store, there's no way they'll go that low.

Another example: Magicka. When it goes on sale, it's usually either 50% or 80%. 80% off on a $24.99 collection that includes all the DLC is $6.24. Just try finding anything that rivals that anywhere else.

Of course, you can't, because Magicka is digital-distribution-only. So any place you buy it from would be giving you a Steam key, which means you're paying an intermediate middleman.

How about Super Meat Boy? You can get a boxed copy of that. It's $20 now at any legitimate store, or you can get it for $8 off eBay. Of course, I can't really tell how much I payed for it. I bought it in a Humble Indie Bundle, which doesn't give boxed copies. I payed $6.30 for it and 5 other games, which then eventually jumped up to 10 other games for the same price.

Honestly, the only reasons to not buy games on digital distribution are a) resistance to change, b) the feeling that it lacks ownership, c) you want something to display when people come over, d) DRM, e) you'd rather pirate if you're not going to get a box copy, or f) slow internet (which nullifies e).

DRM and slow internet are the only ones I have any sympathy for. I'll admit, a) held me back for a while. Mostly because I didn't have a way to translate cash into online payments. Once I actually did it, I was hooked. It's just so much more convenient, especially since half the time you'll install the boxed copy and then have to download the same amount of data anyways, because it's been patched so much between the time the disc was printed and the time you actually installed it.

For wanting something to display... well, I guess that's your prerogative. Having all the physical trappings doesn't enhance my experience at all, and I've never been one to post up the posters and figurines and such that come with limited edition copies of games. I bought the CE of Wrath of the Lich King not because I wanted any of the cool stuff it came with, but because I needed a new mouse pad. I was hoping it would be a badass mousepad, but it turned out to be rather disappointing. Oh well.

As a final note, I'll admit this. Almost all of the games I have on Steam, either they were part of a bundle, they're Steam/digital distribution only, or I got them at absurdly discounted prices. The last is usually true regardless. You see, I don't bother buying anything unless I'm really damn excited and preordering/buying on day 1, or it's absurdly discounted.

[Slacker Magician]

Not every game comes in a physical copy. For a lot of companies, it's much more feasible to do no boxed copy since they don't have to pay the prices for printing, disc stamping, materials, etc.

Not really right on the prices there. HURR HUGE STEAM SALE, get something for 75% off of retail price. Even if you get it at a marked down price at a retailer, you're going to be paying more than 25% for most games, especially the popular ones that people actually buy when they go on sale.

You're saying that all those material costs make their profit margin amount to nothing? Something tells me that material cost per game isn't $45.

Fixed my post.

[Gypsy]

I've viewed the prices of Steam sales plenty. You have to realise that you can always get physical copies for well under suggested retail all the time (I bought 3 games recently that retail for $130 for $30 last week). I really don't care about random PC games though (especially indie stuff) so the small titles are irrelevant to me and any big release will drop quickly because so many copies are made. In most cases I've not seen a steam sale on a big title that wasn't already available for a deep discount at at least one major retailer so I've had no real reason to go the digital route.

Honestly, the only reasons to not buy games on digital distribution are a) resistance to change, b) the feeling that it lacks ownership, c) you want something to display when people come over, d) DRM, e) you'd rather pirate if you're not going to get a box copy, or f) slow internet (which nullifies e).

My thing has been that I can always move a physical copy of a game if I end up not caring for it. Being able to resell digital copies would make me more willing to buy some things digital (games that I would be selling off after I beat them in the first place).

Edit: A sub thing under option F could be heavily capped internet. I only get 17GB of bandwidth a month so I couldn't come close to downloading most new games without getting speed capped hard. Which is nasty.

For wanting something to display... well, I guess that's your prerogative. Having all the physical trappings doesn't enhance my experience at all, and I've never been one to post up the posters and figurines and such that come with limited edition copies of games. I bought the CE of Wrath of the Lich King not because I wanted any of the cool stuff it came with, but because I needed a new mouse pad. I was hoping it would be a badass mousepad, but it turned out to be rather disappointing. Oh well.

As a final note, I'll admit this. Almost all of the games I have on Steam, either they were part of a bundle, they're Steam/digital distribution only, or I got them at absurdly discounted prices. The last is usually true regardless. You see, I don't bother buying anything unless I'm really damn excited and preordering/buying on day 1, or it's absurdly discounted.

We are obviously very different people in this area I'll just leave it at that.

[gezegond]

@Colamisu: You forgot expensive internet. Which is specially true for heavy games like Mass Effect and the like. Downloading 25GB of data would cost me about $30-$40 or even more. So I would be paying more if I buy my games online.

Another thing, perhaps for collectors, is instability. What if valve goes bankrupt, steam goes down, and you format your computer? All your games will be belonged to history. All that money spent, and suddenly you've got nothing. The attraction of a physical copy is that even if World War III starts and the whole world goes boom by nukes, you can still play your games if you somehow manage to survive. (along with your physical games)

[Colamisu]

You're saying that all those material costs make their profit margin amount to nothing? Something tells me that material cost per game isn't $45.

Not every game costs $45. There are plenty of developers/publishers out there who put out things for <=$20 if you move away from the big companies like Activision Blizzard and EA. If you look at the Steam catalog, there are 1428 full games under $20 and only 156 games over $20.

Economics lesson: There's a base price to manufacture, regardless of the number of units. Then the marginal price is miniscule. Something like a few cents per copy. So basically, the first copy costs something like $20,000 to make, then every copy after that is 7 cents. So until you can guarantee you're going to sell at least 1,000 boxed copies, your price has to be over $20 to guarantee you break even just on manufacturing costs. Of course, then the publisher will expect to be paid back in sales for the loan that was given to the developer, so they need to sell considerably more than 1,000. But what if your target audience isn't the type that goes out and buys boxed copies? Then you're completely wasting most of those manufacturing costs, as the audience won't even buy the 1000 copies you manufactured.

tl;dr: ALGEBRA! (20000 + 0.07x)/x = y, where x is the number of units and y is the average cost to manufacture for x units. Small companies actually have to do this math and think about whether or not their x will be big enough to justify it.

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Next post because replies popped up while I was typing the above one.

@Colamisu: You forgot expensive internet. Which is specially true for heavy games like Mass Effect and the like. Downloading 25GB of data would cost me about $30-$40 or even more. So I would be paying more if I buy my games online.

Another thing, perhaps for collectors, is instability. What if valve goes bankrupt, steam goes down, and you format your computer? All your games will be belonged to history. All that money spent, and suddenly you've got nothing. The attraction of a physical copy is that even if World War III starts and the whole world goes boom by nukes, you can still play your games if you somehow manage to survive. (along with your physical games)

I just think of all internet issues as the slow internet. If you have a monthly cap, then it's just limited to GB/month rather than MB/s

As for expensive, I feel for you. That's the point where you start leeching off your neighbor's unsecured wifi. Of course, this goes back to the point I made about boxed copies still having to download almost as much in patches as you have on the disc. Example: Supreme Commander 2. I bought my father a boxed copy, and after installing from disc he was required to download 6 gigs of patches at 150 kb/s before it would let him play at all.

And for instability in the case of valve going bankrupt, steam going down, etc., the same all applies to boxed copies. Even if you can install the game, you can't play it. Almost any big company retail game you buy nowadays requires either an online activation to verify that you're using a unique CD key or, in the case of Ubisoft games or Diablo 3, a constant internet connection to even play. What if the verification servers go down? What if the game servers go down? Then you're SOL whether you bought a boxed copy or a digital one. Of course, there's always a crack. But then we're back to piracy.

As for World War III, sure. You could still play your games if you manage to survive. And have electricity. And a computer in one piece. And the disc(s) in one piece. And internet to do the aforementioned online activation. And servers to activate on.

[Slacker Magician]

Not every game costs $45. There are plenty of developers/publishers out there who put out things for <=$20 if you move away from the big companies like Activision Blizzard and EA. If you look at the Steam catalog, there are 1428 full games under $20 and only 156 games over $20.

Economics lesson: There's a base price to manufacture, regardless of the number of units. Then the marginal price is miniscule. Something like a few cents per copy. So basically, the first copy costs something like $20,000 to make, then every copy after that is 7 cents. So until you can guarantee you're going to sell at least 1,000 boxed copies, your price has to be over $20 to guarantee you break even just on manufacturing costs. Of course, then the publisher will expect to be paid back in sales for the loan that was given to the developer, so they need to sell considerably more than 1,000. But what if your target audience isn't the type that goes out and buys boxed copies? Then you're completely wasting most of those manufacturing costs, as the audience won't even buy the 1000 copies you manufactured.

tl;dr: ALGEBRA! (20000 + 0.07x)/x = y, where x is the number of units and y is the average cost to manufacture for x units. Small companies actually have to do this math and think about whether or not their x will be big enough to justify it.

Durrr shard no no manufacshur.

I wasn't saying that small or 'indie' companies can afford or should do physical releases. I was making a point that big companies try to push digital sales for the same reasons despite the costs being a drop in the ocean to them.

At Geze: That's a crazy price for bandwidth .

[Colamisu]

Durrr shard no no manufacshur.

I wasn't saying that small or 'indie' companies can afford or should do physical releases. I was making a point that big companies try to push digital sales for the same reasons despite the costs being a drop in the ocean to them.

I was referring to small companies that aren't quite considered indie. I thought that was clear because large companies do a boxed copy even if they're pushing digital distribution, simply because they can actually guarantee the sales to cover it.

To cite a specific example, I was thinking of Torchlight 2. It's coming out at some point this summer, but they're not doing a boxed copy despite having done a boxed copy for their first game, simply because they would have to push the price up in order to offset the printing costs they would incur.

[Gypsy]

To cite a specific example, I was thinking of Torchlight 2. It's coming out at some point this summer, but they're not doing a boxed copy despite having done a boxed copy for their first game, simply because they would have to push the price up in order to offset the printing costs they would incur.

This is pretty cool actually. Though I have no interest in the game itself.

It would be neat if big companies would reduce the cost of digital copies upon initial release. I'd be interested to see what would happen if they dropped say a $60 release to $50 for the digital copy and see how this would impact sales.

[gezegond]

Of course, there's always a crack. But then we're back to piracy.

I still have troubles understanding that. Bypassing DRM is not piracy, or at least I'm sure it's not copyright infringement. You're not selling/providing your copy to someone else, so it's not copyright infringement. I think using cracks and such to bypass DRM voids your end user license agreement. I don't know if that's against the law, or if it comes with some kind of penalty. I'll have to look more into it, but I'm pretty sure it's not copyright infringement.

As for World War III, sure. You could still play your games if you manage to survive. And have electricity. And a computer in one piece. And the disc(s) in one piece. And internet to do the aforementioned online activation. And servers to activate on.

You can survive if you find out about it beforehand and run away to a place that won't get bombed. You can have your PC and discs in one place if you bury them underground (very underground). you can create electricity with a small power generator. You won't need to do online activation if you have downloaded your cracks beforehand. Yes I have thought about this before. It is very important for me to be able to play my games after WWIII.

[Ragnar]

Not really right on the prices there. HURR HUGE STEAM SALE, get something for 75% off of retail price. Even if you get it at a marked down price at a retailer, you're going to be paying more than 25% for most games, especially the popular ones that people actually buy when they go on sale.

Example: Borderlands GOTY went on sale for $7.50. No tax. $22.50 for a four pack, translating to about $5.50 per person if you can find three other people to buy into it/play with you. The only places you can find that price for a physical copy online are shady sites that I wouldn't trust. In a brick and mortar store, there's no way they'll go that low.

Just to pick on your example. I didn't get the GOTY, but I picked up Borderlands for $4.50CAD, total. Brand new, on the PS3. And if I had 3 friends I cared to lend it to it'd be the equivalent of $1.13 per person

[Colamisu]

Just to pick on your example. I didn't get the GOTY, but I picked up Borderlands for $4.50CAD, total. Brand new, on the PS3. And if I had 3 friends I cared to lend it to it'd be the equivalent of $1.13 per person

But you can't play simultaneously! And it's also a different platform. It's more fair to compare it to the downloadable version on the PSN store (if there is one) which most likely never goes on sale. My younger brother paid $20 for the downloadable one on the 360 and I sighed profusely.

Also, apologies about above, while in the shower I realized that my viewpoint has likely appeared to be "STEAM IS THE BEST USE IT AND NOTHING ELSE." I had intended to say something more akin to "You shouldn't really make fun of people for using digital distribution, it's as good as/better than buying boxed copies in some cases."