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Thread: Where do you see gaming in 5 years?

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    @colamisu

    That article had a stronger emphasis by the fact the xbox had a hard drive and went online etc. I personally see pc gaming next to gone in ten yrs time.

    Also what you say about the consoles reading dvds. That is very relevant because it simply means if you mod it to boot burnt unsigned media etc, and because it reads dvds it will boot games on a dvd. Just like the dreamcast read CDs and booted GD rom games from cd instead if gd disk. So what the disk drive reads influiences how it can be used against its self, just like the Wii. And of course I mean once its been modded to do so.
    Last edited by Constipated Rat; 8th-August-2011 at 01:42.

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    It's impossible to make a console completely secure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Constipated Rat View Post
    @colamisu

    That article had a stronger emphasis by the fact the xbox had a hard drive and went online etc. I personally see pc gaming next to gone in ten yrs time.

    Also what you say about the consoles reading dvds. That is very relevant because it simply means if you mod it to boot burnt unsigned media etc, and because it reads dvds it will boot games on a dvd. Just like the dreamcast read CDs and booted GD rom games from cd instead if gd disk. So what the disk drive reads influiences how it can be used against its self, just like the Wii. And of course I mean once its been modded to do so.
    I still say PC gaming will never disappear as long as we use PCs.

    I don't particularly care about the main content of the article. My only point is that it said that PC gaming died 10 years ago, and we're still playing PC games now.



    Yes, you're right. If you mod it to boot burnt unsigned media, it will read it. But you don't use it's ability to read DVDs in order to make it read unsigned media.

    Let me clarify. It is not the disc drive's ability to read DVDs that makes it possible to play burned games on the 360 or Wii. The console's primary input is a form of optical disc. Therefore, if you modify the console to accept some sort of optical media other than the intended optical media, it will be able to run unsigned media through that disc drive. It doesn't matter if it's a BluRay drive that cannot read CDs or DVDs. Because they are all optical media, the laser lens inside the disc has the ability to read the data on it. It's simply a matter of the firmware telling the rest of the machine that any data stored on discs other than the intended format is junk data. By modifying the drive's firmware in some way, be it a mod chip or plugging the drive into a computer and flashing it, you allow it to use any type of media that the disc drive can read.

    Let's use an extended metaphor. Imagine you have a book. It's written in English. That's fantastic. Your friend brings over a book he wants you to borrow. The book is in Farsi. You say to your friend, "Shit, man. I can't read this. I don't even know what those symbols are!" So you learn how to read Farsi. Suddenly, you can read a book that's written in Farsi.

    The parallel is simple. The physical requirements for reading the data exist (eyes/laser lens). All you need is the ability to read it (language/software).

    But perhaps that's a stretch. So let's say we use a different form of media. Create a new type of media specifically for your console that no consumer machine on the market has the ability to read. Voila! The DS. The DS uses a completely unique form of media. And it was one of the easiest "consoles" to hack. All they had to do was learn how to connectors between the cartridge and the console transfer data. I doubt they even did that, though. I imagine the first DS flash cards were simply retail carts with the data chips inside replaced or flashed. A minor feat of electrical engineering, and the security of your unique media format is nullified.

    Even if there wasn't some way to access an SD card on a console like the DS, if there is any kind of input that accepts data, it can be modded to run unintended content. That includes things like the USB ports on all modern consoles, the SD slot on the Wii, and even things you would never think of, like the bloody Serial port on the back of the PS1. Even if you have some completely unique media, like your example of the "square discs" or whatever it is, there will eventually be a device available to consumers that can either create said discs or remove the need for them.

    The most difficult would be something that uses only digital distribution. Then you'd have to open up the console and flash the chip with a different IP for the download server. Or remove whatever storage they give you and fill it by connecting to a computer.

    But really, it's not feasible to make a completely secure form of media for a console. If they want it completely secure, the distribution media has to be proprietary, the in-console storage medium has to be proprietary, and all of the connectors have to be proprietary. It's simply not financially viable for a company to completely discard current standards, either from a support point of view or from a development point of view.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colamisu View Post
    Retailers aren't really the only thing holding them back. It's not currently viable to go download-only because a good portion of consumers (including a lot of America) doesn't have access to internet fast enough to make digital distribution a) more convenient than brick and mortar stores or b) even viable, in some cases. I know that my father (who lives in a suburb of Dallas, one of the most tech-based cities in the US outside of Silicon Valley) is still limited to a 1.5 Mbps internet plan, simply because the infrastructure doesn't exist there. My sister's boyfriend actually lives in the upscale neighborhoods in Dallas, and he's limited to a 1.5 Mbps plan as well. He lives within a block of Ross Perot. And my internet rapes his in every orifice regularly while its husband watches from the corner.

    So by my estimates, it'll be a few more years before we're seeing widespread adoption of digital distribution to the point where we have a successful no-physical-media console. So most likely in the next hardware cycle.
    that is a good point, but this is the future we are talking about also. So yes, it will probably be many years still. But it will happen, says I.

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    ...at a nearby Hospital, in a deep state of coma, ultimately dying.
    Too much realism god damn it, this is what kills gaming!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colamisu View Post
    The most difficult would be something that uses only digital distribution. Then you'd have to open up the console and flash the chip with a different IP for the download server. Or remove whatever storage they give you and fill it by connecting to a computer.

    But really, it's not feasible to make a completely secure form of media for a console. If they want it completely secure, the distribution media has to be proprietary, the in-console storage medium has to be proprietary, and all of the connectors have to be proprietary. It's simply not financially viable for a company to completely discard current standards, either from a support point of view or from a development point of view.
    Look at the PSP Go. It's not a matter of downloading from a different server, it's cracking the digital format or firmware of the device. UMDs were completely unique, that didn't help the PSP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shardnax View Post
    Look at the PSP Go. It's not a matter of downloading from a different server, it's cracking the digital format or firmware of the device. UMDs were completely unique, that didn't help the PSP.
    Was the Go ever hacked? I only heard stuff about the 1000s being completely hackable, half of the 2000s being hackable, and the 3000s being unhackable. Then the public key made all that irrelevant since you can just run things without cfw. But the hypothetical system with digital-only in the above post was a completely proprietary system, rather than something that still uses removable media that can be plugged into a computer (the memory stick). As in it has an internal storage that's hardwired into the thing, no removable storage, no USB, etc. No plugs on it except for headphones and power. Possibly a proprietary connector for A/V out. So the epic cockblock.

    And yeah, that's kind of the point I made with the DS. Unique media didn't save them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colamisu View Post
    Was the Go ever hacked? I only heard stuff about the 1000s being completely hackable, half of the 2000s being hackable, and the 3000s being unhackable. Then the public key made all that irrelevant since you can just run things without cfw. But the hypothetical system with digital-only in the above post was a completely proprietary system, rather than something that still uses removable media that can be plugged into a computer (the memory stick). As in it has an internal storage that's hardwired into the thing, no removable storage, no USB, etc. No plugs on it except for headphones and power. Possibly a proprietary connector for A/V out. So the epic cockblock.

    And yeah, that's kind of the point I made with the DS. Unique media didn't save them.
    You can run loaders and played signed games on them. I think there is CFW for it, I remember seeing something about it a month ago. The 3000s were hackable, you just needed lower firmware. I was using the UMD as another example of proprietary media failing to prevent piracy.
    If firmware mods aren't an option, hackers will move to hardware mods.

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    the GO was the first attempt to make gaming download only, it failed. so i would say we got another 10 years till they attempt it again

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    Wasnt pc gaming supposed to have been gone or next to gone 10 years ago? as long as pc's are in use,games will be made and played on them.just like you will never replace the people who love the plug and play simplicity of consoles,(myself being one)you will never replace the people who just want a little more "oomph" in their games (myself also being one) that pc games deliver.

    As far as gaming overall in 5 years I hope to see some innovations.We will be well into the next generation of consoles by then,and I think we all assume that our current XBL,PSN & Wii accounts will transfer over to the new consoles (they better!!) so im sure we will still be playing those types of games still.I expect to see more in the way of digital downloading,though im not really happy about that since we all know that the $ saved by not producing cases,manuals etc will not be passed down to the consumer.We will all have to wait and see! im certainly excited though!!

    To the member above me: overkill much? you want one of the better game makers of the world,Capcom to go bankrupt because they canceled MML3? now let me say that I love MM.I always have since I played MM2 @ age 7.but that ridiculous! imagine no more SF,Darkstalkers,and OTHER MM games
    cmon bro grow up!
    Last edited by emufan79; 8th-August-2011 at 14:57.

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    I don't think that games should become download-only ever, but if they have to at least wait until a console can last 10 years, and come with a 25TB hard drive to support the hundred of games (2-15gb each) that the console would have in 10 years. I think they are nowhere near that in hard drive storage, so right now a cheaply made DL DVD/ Blu-Ray disc is probably going to stay for a long time until all your movies and games can be stored on a console. EX: Imagine you have a collection of over 1000 dvds, and if you had to download each one instead of popping a disc in a console/pc to watch it, that would fill up or overfill your hard drive, so it is simply more convenient to use the disc format until hard drive tech and global DSL greatly increase in the next 10 years.


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    Quote Originally Posted by unnoticedninja View Post
    I don't think that games should become download-only ever, but if they have to at least wait until a console can last 10 years, and come with a 25TB hard drive to support the hundred of games (2-15gb each) that the console would have in 10 years. I think they are nowhere near that in hard drive storage, so right now a cheaply made DL DVD/ Blu-Ray disc is probably going to stay for a long time until all your movies and games can be stored on a console. EX: Imagine you have a collection of over 1000 dvds, and if you had to download each one instead of popping a disc in a console/pc to watch it, that would fill up or overfill your hard drive, so it is simply more convenient to use the disc format until hard drive tech and global DSL greatly increase in the next 10 years.
    If you don't abuse them, discs can last for decades without degrading.

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    @Colamisu

    That whole Disk Drive write up you did is wrong. Drives can only read what they are made too, its the structure of the disk dictates if the drive reads or declines it.. ffs, some consoles like the PS2 wont read certain DVD spin-offs like DVD-R or DVD RW's.. never mind a completely different format, so why is that?(you would think the softmod would fix this going by what your saying).. yet later models with more modern drives that support those other DVD spin-offs read them disks OK. And this problem is evident in a lot of systems over the years mainly not reading DVD RW. or only supporting DVD-R or DVD+R. Also consoles boot burnt DVD movies and burnt music CD's, but not games, obviously because of the security checks and the bypassing bootlaoder, so modding isn't needed just to use burnt media, as long as it is supported by the ~Drive it will boot even if it needs a hack to make it.. like to beat the bootloader and play the burnt games.

    That is why when you are buying a drive for you pc it lists all the different formats and spin-offs it reads/writes.. by your info it seems you can flash a drive FW to read whatever you want it too. Like flashing a CD rom into a DVD rom. or a CD rom into a GD rom which would have been done back in the day.

    The problem here is that I mentioned "unsigned code".. maybe that was too hard a term I used. What I should have said was just bypassing the bootloader to boot burnt games.

    Also no harm to you mate, but your knowledge is a little off, that is why I cant take what you are saying seriously,. It looks as if you're running to google and compiling a post with very loose knowledge before posting a reply. Even when you mentioned 360 games being HD-DVD and only being read by "certain" pc drives with custom FW.. even that is wrong. There is quite a few ways to read 360 games on a pc, by either interfacing an xbox drive to the pc or using software and a standard pc DVD rom drive. The xbox drive is a DVD rom and it plays DVD DL games as all DVD roms read Dual layer. That is why they had to bring out a HD DVD attachment to play HD DVD movies.

    And as far as Wii/Gamecube/Dreamcast go, those are touch and go as "proper" proprietary because they are just slightly different from the already existing media and drives can be duped into possibly reading them very easily using a different drive. That is propabbly how they imaged GC games(again I'm not a googler, but you can see how easy it would have been) But you can't play legit GD dreamcast games in a emu on pc AFAIK, but you can with legit PS1/PS2 games, mainly because of the pc drive not reading GD rom disks, but the PS CD/DVD games are supported by the pc drive.

    Some disk drives have the ability to read "some" disks that are not in their format reading, because of their structure and the fact they use only little tricks to stop pc drives reading them, but if a more modern proprietary drive was designed properly, I believe it could be fail proof.

    Also what you guys mention about the psp UMD format, that format was protected as no burnable UMDs were made. But then there's the big drawback of hackers making software to dump and image the games, then using the memory card to load them- using hacked software of course. And the same as the DS, that is cartridge based and cartridges are now a days are so easy to fool, again you need to look at the structure of the cartridge, and interfacing an SD card to a homemade card/cartridge isn't all that hard.. look at flashcarts for retro systems... dumping carts is soooo easy too, and believe me they are not proper proprietary countermeasures, mainly just a format used to help loading times and not have to use a disk drive etc....

    So you can see, dumping and imaging is the other drawback... it needs to be securely protected from this too... not just from running optical media hacks. Maybe if there wass no way to connect a hard drive or memory cards/usb sticks etc, maybe that would work against loading disk images
    Last edited by Constipated Rat; 8th-August-2011 at 16:27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Constipated Rat
    Also no harm to you mate, but your knowledge is a little off, that is why I cant take what you are saying seriously,. It looks as if you're running to google and compiling a post with very loose knowledge before posting a reply. Even when you mentioned 360 games being HD-DVD and only being read by "certain" pc drives with custom FW.. even that is wrong. There is quite a few ways to read 360 games on a pc, by either interfacing an xbox drive to the pc or using software and a standard pc DVD rom drive. The xbox drive is a DVD rom and it plays DVD DL games as all DVD roms read Dual layer. That is why they had to bring out a HD DVD attachment to play HD DVD movies.
    You can't flash any DVD-ROM drive with Kreon firmware to get it to read 360 discs. The Samsung SH-D162D and Samsung SH-D163B are the only two that support it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Constipated Rat View Post
    Way too long.
    Proprietary media formats aren't going to stop piracy. There will always be an exploit, be it hardware or software.

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