Moral choices in games.

[Gare]

Pretty sure we've all seen them - mostly in RPGs, but at times in other games as well, sometimes done relatively convincingly, at other times, not so much. But we'll get to that in a second. In any case, I thought it'd be a semi-decent topic for discussion.

I personally love it when games really make me question whether or not I'm doing the right thing. And when a game manages to make me feel guilty, that's a pretty awesome feeling, in its own weird way. But I'm guessing this is not the same for everyone - you'd have to be really immersed and really into the game to be able to experience certain things. I'm pretty sure there are people who don't really think twice about some of these choices, but keep in mind that that's not necessarily their fault. Poorly designed moral choices might also be at fault here.

Now comes two paragraphs of me talking about how unconvincing the moral choices are in Bioshock. If you're not interested, skip ahead.

Spoiler warning:

Bioshock, to me, is the textbook example of poor game design in this regard: tell me, did you honestly give a fuck about those Little Sisters? If the answer is no, did you ever think about why that is? From a gameplay point of view, there's really not a huge difference: you get rewards either way; maybe a bit more on the good path, but still. But from a narrative viewpoint, these choices meant jack shit. You never see the consequences of your choices during the game, and it's barely ever mentioned. And no, I'm not counting the "good ending" cutscene at the end. Come on. You could say that "well, it's just an FPS" and you'd actually be right - my point is, don't put meaningless moral choices in an FPS simply for the sake of doing it. Develop it more, or don't put it in the game. A shitty system is not necessarily better than no system at all.

And it's not like you couldn't have done something interesting with the basic idea. Imagine that you can't "save" Little Sisters: sure, you can leave them alone and be on your merry way, but they'd still remain the same, aimlessly roaming the city of Rapture. Had the game hinted at the fact that harvesting them is putting them out of their misery, that would've been a much more interesting angle, and might've resulted in some inner conflict in the players. But in the actual game, you can either be Hitler or Jesus Christ, there's a clear distinction between good and evil: no shades of grey. But this post is getting long, so I'll shut up.

So what are your thoughts on moral choices in games? Have you ever encountered a game that made you regret something? Feel free to give examples of moral choices done well/poorly. Hopefully we can get a decent discussion going with this.

[Supreme Warrior]

I Think its a cool idea to give you choices to effect the outcome of the game, kinda like in Star Wars KOTOR.

[Aeolus Aeneas]

Moral choices are a joke, because there are no shades of gray when it comes to endings; you're either the second coming of Jesus or you're Lucifer given flesh.

[Gare]

Moral choices are a joke, because there are no shades of gray when it comes to endings; you're either the second coming of Jesus or you're Lucifer given flesh.

Just because most games make you choose between either good or evil doesn't mean it can't be done well. There's The Witcher, and some of the choices in Dragon Age: Origins, where you thought you made the right choice, only to go "well, fuck." a while later when you see the consequences.

Now, I'm not saying DA:O or The Witcher are the best thing ever, but at least they were trying.

[Fer!]

Kill the Rachni.

With my Paragon Male Shepard it was an easy call, I trust that they will help in ME3 and they didn't mean to do bad against the Krogan.
However, following my Feminazi Shep playthrough I actually felt bad about killing them. I completely loathe and dislike her. T_T

This means, Bioware did it right with making you regret or feel good about your decisions in the game, it really connects with you and for example, being an evil overlord pimp who kills homosexuals and sets the rent price insanely high in Fable 2 was hilarious.

[Miss Piggy]

A shitty system is not necessarily better than no system at all.

*looks at shadow the hedgehog*

There are some games, I find, that are too wrapped around the system, or have it there when it would have been more worthwhile to not have it there. Take StH. There are so many different pathes to take, It`s not even funny. What they should have done, Instead of making me go through every ending and put the pieces together to figure out the story, they should have made one, long game that keeps me going for several hours.

In my opinion, games with gimmiks like that should affect both storyline AND gameplay. For instance, If you were to take the evil path, you would learn some things that would make you question whats good and evil, and get different types of weapons compared to the Neutral and Good path.

EDIT: Also, it should make you see your consequences when choosing paths, and even actions within your moral alignment. For instance, if you were to have to save friends in the evil path, but you decide to get new gear instead, and do this repeatedly, by the time the epic end battle comes along, you have 4 or 5 main allies, the other side has 10-15 or something like that.

[Solbadude]

Since I did a neutral run through of Tactics Ogre: Wheel of Fate, I can agree that some games do it right and others do not.
In Tactics Ogre you make a moral choice at the end of the first chapter, which is a decision that most people still can not understand as Lawful or Chaotic. They think that saving people is always good and killing innocents can only be seen as pure evil. It all comes down to interpretation. Was it wrong to nuke 2 city's in Japan causing thousands of deaths and years of economic and health issues, than landing an all out invasion which would kill millions?

I think DnD's Alignment system is the most accurate.

[retrofiber]

@Gare
Great topic, although the initial post may have been a bit dragged out perhaps. Also I'm a bit dissapointed that you didnt contribute an opinion to the game art thread as I have noticed that you contributed some of the coolest art to this forum via your avatars and sigs. I have saved many of them to my comp. as I appriciate your taste.

Anyway...I love being given these choices when they indeed cause a difference in the experience/outcome of the game. This works well and is the backbone of good games such as Fable in my opinion. If you are a completionist as I fancy myself, it also contributes greatly to a games replay factor. I believe all games should be replayed as if attempting mastery of a puzzle. I find when I play a game once through I dont retain much of it's experience as I do when playing a second time through.

While it really depends on my mood at the time, I think I would have to say I tend to try to go the righteous rout at first, then the more corrupt rout the second time through, although I dont view it as a die hard rule and am totally susceptible to mix it up.

Kind of the same when confronted with a level maze...Do you explore all left turns or right turns at first? Or just totally haphazard in your logic?

Aeolus Aeneas
Moral choices are a joke, because there are no shades of gray when it comes to endings; you're either the second coming of Jesus or you're Lucifer given flesh.

As much as it pains me to disagree with an Y's fan...In my own opinion I must disagree with this statement whole heartedly. There are many shades of grey in life so why not in video games as well?

[Gare]

For instance, if you were to have to save friends in the evil path, but you decide to get new gear instead, and do this repeatedly, by the time the epic end battle comes along, you have 4 or 5 main allies, the other side has 10-15 or something like that.

This reminded me of Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume to a certain extent. In order to reach your -rather selfish- goal, you'll eventually have to sacrifice your allies to strengthen yourself. I remember there being a couple of battles that are actually a lot easier to win if you just kill off a teammate. It did manage to make me feel like an asshole, though. Especially when I watched this girl die because of me, while his father was also in my team. Uh, yeah. You choices change the ending, and if I remember correctly, the final battle will be tougher depending on how many people you've sacrificed during your journey (mostly because they'll appear at the end and turn against you. I guess being sacrificed pisses people off).

@Retrofiber: If there's any specific art you want (that I've used as an avatar/sig), feel free to let me know and I can try finding the original, full-sized versions for you. I'm pretty sure I still have most of them somewhere on my hard drive.

[luffy4]

well i enjoyed shadow the hedgehog swearing and all. but one game that no one saw coming that has moral choices is Epic mickey, i enjoy it so far and the dark aspect is unexpectedly awesome

[retrofiber]

@Retrofiber: If there's any specific art you want (that I've used as an avatar/sig), feel free to let me know and I can try finding the original, full-sized versions for you. I'm pretty sure I still have most of them somewhere on my hard drive.

I cant think of any specifically at the moment, but if i do I'll let you know. They more than likely involved big breasted babes though. Thanks for the offer.

One game I can recall that made me question my morality (or lack of) was Oni for PS2. Some of the scientists you run into throughout the game hook you up w/ health and ammo. If you accidentally (or on purpose for that matter) attack them first they dont help you. I can recall snaping the backs of the ones who gave nothing if I was in dire need of health.

While this doesn't have an impact on the outcome of the games story, it's one of the first games I can recall making a conscious choice to either be nice or an ass.

[Draaza]

Surprisingly, the obvious example of Persona and SMT has not yet shown up in a whole 11 posts.

I'm guessing Aeolus Aeneas has not played anything much of either series, because there are some very strong grey areas - many of your decisions have distinct positives and negatives, and sometimes you have to put some serious thought into what you'd rather do (and a few of the choices have a serious wtf factor as to affecting the endings of certain ones of them, but I digress because that's not my point).

[JKDarkside]

Epic Mickey had moral choices pretty light but handled well in a gameplay aspect. The thinner path is overall faster and easier, but there's more reward with the paint choice, and of course this overall affects the ending. Marvel Ultimate Alliance had something similar, except it came to to bad stuff happening because you didn't do anything. Weak. I actually really like Shadow the Hedgehog, but it's "moral choices" were weak and boring at best. Felt really unnecessary.

Persona 3 and 4 are kinda weird. They're games all about choice, but not really moral choice. It's about choices related to what's going on in the game and what you would have your character say to affect the outcomes. It's heavy in gray, just begins to fall apart because one choice most likely means you get a bad ending and that's about it. In social links, it's just a matter of reading a character's emotional state right.

Bully would have done it best if not for the system itself being changed by the story.

[Gare]

I've played through Persona 2, 3 and 4, but I don't remember too many game-altering choices. Like Darkseid said, you can have your protagonist say different stuff in dialogues, but it's hardly a moral choice, and the majority of it is your usual "JRPG fake choice" that barely affects anything other than a line of dialogue. In the end, you'll just get the same cutscene, anyway.

There's the endgame choice in P3, but that's about it. And even that is just the game asking you if you want to have an early Game Over or if you want to continue on with the true ending/final dungeon. It doesn't really have an effect other than that. It is quite a difficult decision, though, that pretty much affects the entire human race, so in that regard, you're right.

[Knightshade]

I think DnD's Alignment system is the most accurate.

i wholeheartedly agree i remember playing Baldurs gate 1 and 2 back in the day i always liked the fact that it wasn't just a simple choice between right and wrong based on your play style the game was very much affected and not just for good or bad you could play as a neutral character like in your example of Tactics Ogre: Wheel of Fate