In our image

[Xena]

Well, how do you know your will isn't just a bunch of complex chemicals reacting in different ways?

Will could be a bunch of chemicals reacting, then again, it could be my aunt Fanny's homemade cakes.

[Syphon]

....it could be my aunt Fanny's homemade cakes.

ROFL !!!!!!! I don't know what to say to this. All my thoughts were said here already so......

[Xaenn]

If you think in the scope that hatever has happened is in the past and we can't change time, then there simply isn't any other way things could have played out its proven because its happened once in the timeline of things and can't be gone back on and changed.

It seems like there is choice and a process we call choice exists I suppose, but as there is no way of changing it once it has happened there really was only 1 choice in the first place, if you catch my drift.

I guess I don't quite follow your logic. Just because you can only choose one way, doesn't mean only one way could've been chosen.

Well, how do you know your will isn't just a bunch of complex chemicals reacting in different ways? That would be completely deterministic as well, then. Okay, not completely, due to quantum physics coming in at that level and uncertainty factors mixing in, but still, highly determinable.

Well, first of all I'm not convinced quantum physics aren't deterministic, just that there is so much information we could never put it all together to make the accurate prediction. However, were I to say that then I would have to accept determinism.

My clearest answer would be because I can choose. Because I have that ability, there is either something else, or somehow a special construction of matter has the ability to manipulate matter (ie, force reactions to occur in a certain way). It's an interesting thought but seems unlikely for me. But that would lead to so many interesting possibilities, because given that it wouldn't be so far fetched that telekinesis and other strange things are possible. But that's just further evidence against such a proposition.

As far as I can see all physical processes are deterministic, and we are the ones who can change things.

[Allea]

Well first of all, as many of you may know from my past threads...
I just like making controversial topics and seeing how people reply.
It broadens my way of thinking as well as kind of brings us all together, in agreement or disagreement, on a way of seeing our world.

As far as the 'random answer' theory...
There are 'dictionary programs' that learn new words as you use them on your computer without ever even opening the program.
It stores words as you type and learns them for later recall or spell check and such.
A robot could easily be made the same way to where it wouldn't be a set number of random responses but that it learns from each response it views or senses or...whatever...
You could then say that it would still be defective due to wrong input would lead to wrong random responses, but this leads back to how human are we...
For a very long time mankind believed the world was flat.
For a very long time mankind believed the sun was an omnipotent being (God) looking over the Earth with an acknowledgement that we existed.
For a very long time mankind believed the Pharoahs were 'Gods'
For a very long time many groups of men believed taking a photo of someone 'stole and captured' their soul...
Man (I use that word to say all humans) have had many times and incidents of 'bad input' which was largely believed...and lived by.
We 'learned' that drinking blood of the ones you kill doesn't give you their strength...but for some time, people believed that was true.
We could easily create a robot that 'learns' from it's wrongs and alters it's behavior.
Man kills man.
Even you and I...everyday.
If I eat half of a baked potato and feel full I may throw the rest away without a second thought, meanwhile that half of potato I trash could possibly save the life of someone in a starving, poverty famished nation.
If we have such a great learning capacity that is beyond what a 'robot' could ever ascertain, than why is there still so much unrest in the world?
Obviously our programs are still not complete.

[Xaenn]

I don't think there is any reason robots won't surpass humans. Once they can modify themselves, the growth will be exponential. This is a long way off though.

[Xena]

As far as I can see all physical processes are deterministic, and we are the ones who can change things.

Even hearing? Many people under estimate the potential for human hearing. If you locked yourself inside an Acoustic Sealed room, that is to say a room with walls designed to absorb sound making the room isolated from outside noises, your body automatically tunes up your hearing. After a while, you start to hear strange noises....

These noises are from within your own body. First, you start to hear the sound of your own heart beating. Harder and harder. Next, you hear the sound of your blood cruising through your veins. After about an hour, in-between the kabumps of the heart, and the slushing of the blood, your patience is rewarded by a slight hissing sound. This hissing sound is air particles hitting your ear drum, the air particles are about 1,000th of a 1,000,000th of a CM in size.

I have personally experienced this and it is a truly remarkable experience.

[ll_alchemist_ll]

That happen to me everyday night when I sleep xena. When I first was hearing my own organ in work and air hitting my ear drum I was thinking it had something to do with some type of brain scan probe from aliens or the government lol.When I look back its funny I even told my pupil about it and they laugh at me thinking I was some type of nut case.The first couple of experience it feel weird because you can actually feel your heart beating and the blood being pump though your veins but more like your flowing traveling small.I use to turn on a fan so I didnt have to listen to it but later found out in my mind eye you can picture stuff more clear like a hallucination and a good relaxation. I believe it got something to do with channeling your energy to .

[Xaenn]

I have personally experienced this and it is a truly remarkable experience.

Well that does seem like a very remarkable experience. However, I am not sure what relevance it has to determinism. Why would one not say that the body turns it's hearing up to some certain extent, and be able to predict such behavior?

[Skinner8]

It's that time again!

Because every computer consists of AND, OR, and NOT. Completely deterministic. We're not.

Prove it. Or even just make a coherent argument for it - as in, not "I'm used to the idea that I have free will, therefore I do" or "Hey look, I'm choosing to type this!"

Then explain how and why free will operates entirely outside the realm of logic, without being random.

And while you're at it, why is it that people always use their free will to make the exact same choices they would've if there was no free will?



Occam's razor tells me pretty clearly that determinism is the sensible theory here.

[Lynx]

Interesting thread,ladies and gents.

[Xaenn]

Prove it.

Prove anything to me other than mathematics...You can't. Nothing can be proven. If you want to reduce things to nihilism, then by all means. The only problem is you can make no valid argument once you do so.

Or even just make a coherent argument for it - as in, not "I'm used to the idea that I have free will, therefore I do" or "Hey look, I'm choosing to type this!"

The best argument in favor of morality is that something is moral. The morality is inherent in the action, which we can only see through reason. Clearly utilitarianism or other theories fall short in this regard.

Free will is also apparent because it is. I know I have free will because I have it. That is all. If you're looking for something more you won't be able to find it.

And while you're at it, why is it that people always use their free will to make the exact same choices they would've if there was no free will?

And how do you intend to back up such a statement?

Occam's razor tells me pretty clearly that determinism is the sensible theory here.

Then let's point to nihilism as far as any moral theory is concerned.

[Xena]

Well that does seem like a very remarkable experience. However, I am not sure what relevance it has to determinism. Why would one not say that the body turns it's hearing up to some certain extent, and be able to predict such behavior?

Ah, it has nothing to do with determinism. I just wanted to share the experiance, sorry, making my thoughts clear has never been my strong suit. You know a little of my feelings on fate. Besides, seeing life as a bunch of calculations is a bit cold hearted for me.

[Skinner8]

It is an interesting experience, yes. You don't need a soundproof room for it, either.

[Xena]

It is an interesting experience, yes. You don't need a soundproof room for it, either.

I guess not. Though it helps.

[Allea]

It is an interesting experience, yes. You don't need a soundproof room for it, either.

One time I was at this party and someone had made oregano *cough* brownies and also pizza with 'mushrooms' that didn't come from the grocery store...and wow, I'll tell you...
Now that was an interesting experience...