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    Default Guilty conscience from using this site?

    Hi, all. So, I'm not looking to criticize this website or get it in trouble - I'm just asking whether downloading a game here would still make me liable for a cease-or-desist warrant (even if I never get one) or if it is just generally an unlawful thing to do. I am specifically talking about an older, lesser known (sadly) game that didn't get much love when it was first released and not really for all roms/images. I know that morally it wouldn't be so different from buying a used copy of the game - but I think it might be available through the publishers website to buy, but what do you all think? I know that there a lot of people out there that couldn't care less about what they download, and I care, but if I'm being realistic, I don't really see the difference between buying a used copy versus downloading because neither gains any profit to the publisher. Really the only reason not to download it is simply to not to stain my reputation by making myself liable for a cease-or-desist warrant or even a lawsuit because like I said, it's not going to hurt the publisher anymore than if I were to buy it used on Amazon, but since it might be available on the website, I am not sure.

    Can I trust this websites services?

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    If you follow every law in D&D you're Lawful Neutral because you're unconcerned about what harm or how evil some laws are(i.e. abortion laws being considered evil whether anti or pro depending on the laws). It is illegal to walk slowly in Hialeah Florida, but there are no power-walking police enforcing that law. I highly doubt you'll receive a cease-and-desist order for downloading retro ROMs from publishers that don't exist anymore and/or that are incapable of profiting from the sale of old carts or discs. If I was concerned about legalities I'd stay away from downloading games from current-gen consoles because that's obvious piracy. I have no guilty conscience about anything I do, nor do I condone evil acts done by others; to me everything short of doing evil is everyone's freedom. In D&D terms methinks I'm Chaotic Neutral, you're probably going to get better legal advice from Jack Sparrow. Anyway, my opinion does not represent the views of this site or anyone else but myself. Anyone else's opinion here on this topic would be enjoyable to discuss.
    Last edited by Till; 26th-February-2020 at 06:40. Reason: I have no guilty conscience, I might be psychopathic and there's no cure for psychopathy. At least I don't like evil-doing.
    Free beer for everyone! --> How to upload files as ROM patches.


    reductio ad absurdum



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    Thanks for the reply. There was one part of it, however that I wasn't really sure I understood. Could you please explain this part again?: "If I was concerned about legalities I'd stay away from downloading games from current-gen consoles because that's obvious piracy"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by professerproof40 View Post
    Thanks for the reply. There was one part of it, however that I wasn't really sure I understood. Could you please explain this part again?: "If I was concerned about legalities I'd stay away from downloading games from current-gen consoles because that's obvious piracy"?
    If you can go buy the game new at a store or online it's what will get you in hot water from your ISP(and possibly ICE in the US), you'll be taking a greater risk of receiving a cease-and-desist order from them. If it's current-gen there will be obvious piracy issues to address by the enforcement agencies.
    Quote Originally Posted by deadlegion View Post
    Nintendo is probably the only one that would beat the life out of a poor person lying in the gutter. They're mentally damaged from all the famiclone piracy many years ago that they mostly couldn't do anything about.
    Aye, the big N will persecute anyone caught downloading their games regardless of generation. Best to avoid them if you're concerned about legalities, I personally am not because Archive.org will offer retro ROMs and use online emulators for them anyway. Who's going to shut down the wayback machine?

    https://archive.org/details/psx_armcopp
    Last edited by Till; 26th-February-2020 at 07:20. Reason: Legal or not, Archive.org will host retro games.
    Free beer for everyone! --> How to upload files as ROM patches.


    reductio ad absurdum



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    Okay. I see now. I guess it went over my head. But, wow so it doesn't bother you at all that even if nothing happens to you, downloading a ROM is breaking the law? Whether it is or isn't very popular? Well like I said, morally I see no difference between downloading and buying used - that doesn't bother me, but what does is, at the end of every moral rainbow, there is a book of law and whether or not we agree we with the laws it provides or feel like they make any sense, breaking them can sting our sense of self or cause havoc in our lives, or at least this is the way I feel about it..

    I recently found out about the Web Archive hosting games. They also have a ton of other stuff on there that seems like piracy. Are you sure that it isn't a matter of time until they start getting complaints and have to take measures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by professerproof40 View Post
    I recently found out about the Web Archive hosting games. They also have a ton of other stuff on there that seems like piracy. Are you sure that it isn't a matter of time until they start getting complaints and have to take measures?
    As an invaluable Internet tool it will not just disappear because its servers are seized. Whether they comply with all laws or any court orders or not it would finally sort out the definitive precedent regarding the legal status of downloading and hosting ROMs. In court what matters are precedents, what I'm stating is that I personally would be able to represent myself in court using Archive.org as the precedent for a double standard. I also feel no remorse for downloading retro games because they are ubiquitous on the Internet to the point the Wayback Machine hosts them.
    Free beer for everyone! --> How to upload files as ROM patches.


    reductio ad absurdum



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    Nintendo is probably the only one that would beat the life out of a poor person lying in the gutter. They're mentally damaged from all the famiclone piracy many years ago that they mostly couldn't do anything about.

    Spoiler warning:

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    Morally there is a difference between buying old used games (or anything OOP) and downloading a rom. One is a used legit item that you have bought (and therefore own) and the other is a copy.
    I mean you can buy a used book and there's nothing morally wrong about that. Just own a photocopy and that's obviously wrong.
    But for me I can justify copies if the used originals have inflated prices and/or are difficult to obtain.

    I live in a PAL territory, so for older games it usually isn't cheap to get some nice NTSC titles on the cheap. It can be done, but the cheapest way is buying Japanese versions and then I have to worry about the language barrier (some genres it doesn't matter though).

    Spoiler warning:

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    Well one could make the argument that since neither methods profit the publisher in any way there isn't really a difference to them personally - its really about you and whether your willing to abide the laws or not - but I made this post talking only about one niche/discontinued game in particular that I believe is only available on this forum. I really doubt that downloading it from here would hurt its sales as one has to login to find it, but I still wouldn't want to break any laws.

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    Whatever game it is you should still be able to buy it used, just a matter of how expensive it is.

    Spoiler warning:

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    Imagine if someone downloaded an old rom ie:phantasy star 2. Something they never bought or would have thought to buy or even knew existed. They see it on the Xbox store for sale and say well why not? They buy it and have fun with an old retro game legally purchased. Did piracy just score a sale???

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    There are also MAME ROMs, are you going to going to buy an arcade game cabinet to play Pac-man?
    Free beer for everyone! --> How to upload files as ROM patches.


    reductio ad absurdum



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    Quote Originally Posted by Dill the Grey View Post
    There are also MAME ROMs, are you going to going to buy an arcade game cabinet to play Pac-man?
    Good point. But honestly, I think owning the box and instruction book for the game I want sounds really nice. Also, I'm concerned that burning a back-up to a regular dvd-rom to use on the PS2 might damage the laser after a while - snd I wouldn't want to do that..

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    Quote Originally Posted by professerproof40 View Post
    Good point. But honestly, I think owning the box and instruction book for the game I want sounds really nice. Also, I'm concerned that burning a back-up to a regular dvd-rom to use on the PS2 might damage the laser after a while - snd I wouldn't want to do that..
    The newest games are downloaded and installed on your console from an online store, you don't get a physical copy of it or a manual. And the retro games from generations past become increasingly rare if not impossible to find over time because of that trend in new consoles. If ROMs were books you'd want them to be in a library that isn't burned down so that posterity can study gaming history which will be of great interest to future generations, in a perfect world which does not exist but burning down libraries has always been an act of ultimate barbaric ignorance in the past. Just as it still is in the present, and those that can't remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Free beer for everyone! --> How to upload files as ROM patches.


    reductio ad absurdum



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    [QUOTE=Dill the Grey;1958295]The newest games are downloaded and installed on your console from an online store, you don't get a physical copy of it or a manual. And the retro games from generations past become increasingly rare if not impossible to find over time because of that trend in new consoles. If ROMs were books you'd want them to be in a library that isn't burned down so that posterity can study gaming history which will be of great interest to future generations, in a perfect world which does not exist but burning down libraries has always been an act of ultimate barbaric ignorance in the past. Just as it still is in the present, and those that can't remember the past are condemned to repeat it.[/Q

    Just when I think this thread is dead - I get another response https://www.epforums.org/smilies/yelhappy.gif

    I think you've made a good testimony for this site as a whole in this thread - I should have expected no less responses from an emulation site, after all, but in the long run - as I told you - I am concerned about my Playstation 2's health if I have it read a game from a regular-old DVD - ROM because of the reflection of the disc, and - I don't know - I do listen to songs on Youtube and have made a playlist of songs that include ones that people uploaded without permission, but when I think about downloading them, then see commercials for services such as Spotify or Amazon Prime and I think "Well downloading music from Youtube must be bad if people have to pay monthly fees for music", but then, PLAYING copyrighted content on Youtube is also still commiting copyright infringement, yet if people were serious about that, pretty much everyone would be in trouble, right? Even cops probably watch stuff on Youtube that wasn't uploaded with permission like songs or music videos, right? I listen to some Christian songs and a lot of those aren't uploaded by the artists.(and I've found some full-length tracks in the Web Archive without permission, too) When you think about it like that is anyone following the rules? But then again, what really makes downloading so much different from stealing? I don't want to be an advocate for something that's wrong - especially when I see those anti-piracy labels and such. I don't want to support the notion that people can just take stuff without paying for it and commit a crime.. so I feel that what you're trying to convince me is that we shouldn't look at this site as a crime, but as a way of preserving these games because they might go away because they are becoming so rare and inaccessible.

    If memory serves me, uploading roms is actually illegal, too. Yet there are actually law-abiding-seeming ways of playing a rom like if you own the game in a cartridge and want to play it on your phone. So if these sites get taken away, games like these will be ignored, right? So I do think there are some little positives about doing it, but I don't support the wide-spread mass exploitation and money-draining side of it. If we support the downloading of old games, what's to stop us from downloading the new for free? That - is where I'm stuck at. We will be doing the same thing, won't we? The laws haven't changed much have they?

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