Clarification on FATX limits (especially related to games saves)

Ok - so I must be totally misinterpreting all the data that's out there regarding FATX.
Especially the statement that there is a limit of 240 files/folders in any folder and thus you cannot have more than 240 game saves at any time.
And the further statements that just running the game and creating a GameID is limited.

As far as where I am getting my info...this seems to be the most quoted source from Zorlon:
https://www.epforums.org/showthread....ions-and-notes

• 4GB / 4096 Megabyte 4294967296 bytes Max file size
• 42 characters for file names (there are also a bunch of characters not supported , accepted ones are limited to
• ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwx yz0123456789!#$%&'()-.@[]^_`{}~ (that includes spaces)
• (DVD's do not have the same limits and don't use the FATX file system)
• A maximum of 240 in total folder depth (thats a folder inside a folder inside a folder inside a folder up to 240)
• A maximum of 240 folders/files in each folder (thats a flat limit)
• A maximum of 4096 files/folders in a single root folder (this is the grand total of files that can be stored in any single root sub folder)
• Cluster sizes supported = 4 KB 8GB to 64GB, 8 KB 65GB up to 128GB partitions, 16 KB 129GB to 256GB partitions, 32 KB 257GB up to 512GB partitions, 64 KB 513GB up to 1TB partitions
• Save data is also under the 240 limit and if this is hit you will not be able to start any new software after as it will just boot to a black screen

I'm most confused by bullet point 4 which directly lends itself to the last bullet point regarding only 240 game saves.

I currently have a UDATA folder with about 500 folders in it.
I am also able to create a test folder and upload 4096 files to it.

So - if I am able to have over 500 folders in UDATA and over 4000 files in a folder, why is there a 240 limit on game saves?
What exactly is bullet point 4 & 5 indicating when it says a 240 file/folder limit? I don't see any such limitations at all.

To further clarify - game data is created in E:\UDATA (saves) and E:\TDATA (mainly DLC & updates).

It has been claimed multiple times on this site that a maximum of 240 saves is possible because of a file system limitation.

Based on my experiments above I see no such limitation where 240 files/folder/anything is the limit.
Because I can create 4096 folders in each of the E:\ locations, there should be no reason save games are limited.

I would love an explanation because I must be missing something.

thanks.

Save data is also under the 240 limit and if this is hit you will not be able to start any new software after as it will just boot to a black screen

I found that while testing games and my xbox refused to boot anything further after the limit was hit, deleting the saves folders did not help anything so it must store something in another location or even a database of some sort that I never found either way you can start anything new after hitting the limit, I done a bit of digging to find out what the issue was and found out what the limits are of that file system

I have noticed you can have more files on a hdd than the limits describes but those files are not fully readable either same as you can exceed certain space limitations but all files past the limitation although physically there on the HDD are also not readable by the xbox itself

I can't say I felt the need to test dummy saves myself but that is indeed interesting that having random saves there that don't link to back any real software can be there and still allow over the 240 limit, but doing so naturally hitting over will make anything new to that system just boot to a black screen as the data can not be created

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zorlon

Save data is also under the 240 limit and if this is hit you will not be able to start any new software after as it will just boot to a black screen

I found that while testing games and my xbox refused to boot anything further after the limit was hit, deleting the saves folders did not help anything so it must store something in another location or even a database of some sort that I never found either way you can start anything new after hitting the limit, I done a bit of digging to find out what the issue was and found out what the limits are of that file system

I have noticed you can have more files on a hdd than the limits describes but those files are not fully readable either same as you can exceed certain space limitations but all files past the limitation although physically there on the HDD are also not readable by the xbox itself

I can't say I felt the need to test dummy saves myself but that is indeed interesting that having random saves there that don't link to back any real software can be there and still allow over the 240 limit, but doing so naturally hitting over will make anything new to that system just boot to a black screen as the data can not be created

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Thanks for chiming back in Zorlon.

A few more points/questions -

When you say "save data is *also* under the 240 limit" - compared to what? I have only you and one other confirmed person who states they encountered the 240 save problem which I am definitely interested in investigating more, but at this point I am also just very interested in your statements about a limit of 240 files in any folder (exclusive of the save data).

I can pretty definitively say that you can have more than 240 files in any folder and those folders are readable.
Several examples:

I have created over 300 hexadecimal numbered folders in TDATA/UDATA and copied one title's save game data to each of these.
When using XBMC's save game manager it enumerates all of these folders - shows all 400 of these and, while they display with the hex number instead of the title name, each save game is readable by XBMC and can be drilled down into, moved, copied, deleted, etc.

Another example: You of course have a lot of experience playing and creating fixes for almost every game and know which games have issues from the HDD, etc. Take for example "Silent Hill 2" which I don't think anyone has ever issued a problem about. This game has over 1100 files in "/data/bg/ap" and this is just one example of a game with over 240 files in a folder. If there was this limit of unreadable files as you suggest than this game would likely not be playable from the HDD (at least without significant hacks) because all those data files would be inaccessible.

I will also note that in these tests where I have created 400+ folders in TDATA/UDATA I am also able to launch my dashboard of choice and start a game which up to that point has never been launched and thus does not have any save/title data created for it yet in TDATA/UDATA. The games launch fine and I can create a new save for them.

While I haven't tested it yet, I would be 99.9999% confident that were I to add dummy data to each file (say simply sequential numbers in each text file), that I would be able to read the data out of all 400 files using the text viewer in XBMC or UnleashX.

While I respect your huge contribution to the scene I simply cannot observe/believe based on all the testing I have done that there is any sort of 240 file/folder limit within any folder on the system. This being said I am not discounting that the 240 save game issue might exist, but I don't believe that has anything to do with a file system limit of 240 saves. The one other person who has stated they have encountered this issue suspected that it might be an issue with certain libraries that an XBE may have been compiled from and is not a (file)system limitation. Again I cannot discount this yet although my tests in creating these 400+ actual data "dummy saves" would seem to disprove it. I think you would agree that even though they contain duplicate data that it is very unlikely any process in the system or a launched XBE would enumerate each folder and parse each individual save data for uniqueness. That process would surely take a substantial period of time and would be visible on the launch of any such application/title.

I would very much like your insight on this because your original post has been quoted over and over again about this 240 limit (again, exclusive of saves - just in any folder), and I'm not sure if it is entirely accurate. If I can do some other tests or show that my xbox is behaving differently than yours does I think it is worth it to the community to show that this limit might not exist (or at least not in all circumstances)?

I'm also very curious on how the system you tested these things on was modded. Was it a soft or hard mod?
I would very much like to try this with actual unique save data, but right now I only have about 50-60 games with save data and getting this up to 240+ would likely take me a day or two of just launching titles and saving games. I am trying to track down an archive someone might have of many save games that I can load to my box to test as well.

Thanks again for your contributions and for your time in this matter.

Pretty sure Zorlon has only ever messed with softmodded Xbox consoles.

I've mainly used chipped consoles myself and never really worried about possible file limitations...but then I've never used a HDD bigger than say about 320GB, nor have I used an Xbox as a media center.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by deadlegion

Pretty sure Zorlon has only ever messed with softmodded Xbox consoles.

I've mainly used chipped consoles myself and never really worried about possible file limitations...but then I've never used a HDD bigger than say about 320GB, nor have I used an Xbox as a media center.

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Yeah...I'm curious about this. Personally I have an X3 chip in my system and I wonder if this is not some limit of the softmod. But, I've personally never soft-modded a system and don't know much about it. I also have a 2 TB drive (just to be thorough here), and did not try any of these tests when I had a smaller (250 GB I think) drive in the box.

I was also thinking if it could somehow be related to hard drive size (and specifically sector size), but I think everyone regardless of HDD size has the E: drive at least formatted with the same sector size (16 KB I think)?

Also - 240 seems like a weird limit as it is not a standard multiplier (128,512,1024,...,4096,etc). It does have itself on a byte/nibble boundary (if you would call it that) as 11110000 = 240....almost as if the rest were reserved.

Still, I feel it would be helpful to get to the bottom of this because this 240 number is kind of taken as gospel and if it is something that only affects softmod users it would be good to know. Also, it might spur someone smarter than myself to actually look into why the softmod is limited this way and perhaps get around it.

FATX has some differences with FAT, FAT32 etc iirc. The limit might be because FATX is weird :lol

Your chip probably has a bios that patches for large drives...maybe?...idk, I never bothered too much about the tech side of things :wacko:
I've forgotten most of what I knew about this console anyway.

I'm not even 100% sure what chip my modded console has now :thot: I've had a few over the years but this one might be a DUO X2.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by deadlegion

FATX has some differences with FAT, FAT32 etc iirc. The limit might be because FATX is weird :lol

Your chip probably has a bios that patches for large drives...maybe?...idk, I never bothered too much about the tech side of things :wacko:
I've forgotten most of what I knew about this console anyway.

I'm not even 100% sure what chip my modded console has now :thot: I've had a few over the years but this one might be a DUO X2.

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DL is very correct I am very much a softmod user and yes FATX is weird though I would speculate (i.e. it is not fact but a guess)

FATX does not have fragmentation issues that other versions of FAT can have so files should occupy sectors in a group rather than scattered but to do so requires a strict file system that is presumably linked to the actual bios but a mod chip would just take over the bios anyway but a softmod takes effect later on to what a mod chip would and is activated after the Xbox bios chip boots and just replaces the dashboard

File and Folder limits may be more linked to the Xbox bios than the file system itself if a Modchip can bypass that (Again I am a softmod user and to be honest not even used my Xbox/s in some time, not really used them since I hacked a bunch of games to run from HDD)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zorlon

DL is very correct I am very much a softmod user and yes FATX is weird though I would speculate (i.e. it is not fact but a guess)

FATX does not have fragmentation issues that other versions of FAT can have so files should occupy sectors in a group rather than scattered but to do so requires a strict file system that is presumably linked to the actual bios but a mod chip would just take over the bios anyway but a softmod takes effect later on to what a mod chip would and is activated after the Xbox bios chip boots and just replaces the dashboard

File and Folder limits may be more linked to the Xbox bios than the file system itself if a Modchip can bypass that (Again I am a softmod user and to be honest not even used my Xbox/s in some time, not really used them since I hacked a bunch of games to run from HDD)

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Well FATX isn't "weird" so much as it is just not FAT, or FAT32, or ext2....it's FATX so it has a different structure. The best reference I can find for it is here:
http://free60.org/wiki/FATX

It mentions nothing about a 240 file/folder limit.

It also apparently doesn't have to do with BIOS issues because (as I am told by some people who know more than I on this matter), the official MS BIOS code is the same base code that is used in the hacked BIOSes that are in use. I'm working getting answers on several forums and I have had someone else test on two boxes - one with a TSOP running iND 5003 BIOS and also on a softmod. I myself have tested on an X3 chip running 3 different types of BIOS.

None of these systems have any problems with 4096 files/folders in *any* folder. Additionally, none of them have any problems with well over 300+ games in the TDATA/UDATA. These games enumerate fine both in the file system and through the dashboards. New games can be launched and can create new save data.

I don't want to question your experiences as I believe you did experience some issue with your saves. And, if you so state that you thoroughly tested and ran into a 240 file limit in *any* folder I would likely believe you as well. But, truth is only you and one other person (who I can't get to reply to me yet...) are the only ones I can find who can vouch they had the 240 save issue. The scene being what it is now there may not be a lot of feedback, but basically no one else is chiming in saying "yes - I see these issues."

I can't explain the discrepancy but I can prove that it is not an issue on my box and 2 boxes owned by an XBMC part-time developer who I trust. As mentioned these boxes run the gambit in terms of how they are configured and none have the issue.

It might be worth updating your post about FATX limitations here:
https://www.epforums.org/showthread....ions-and-notes
Because clearly many people have been blindly quoting this as soon as anyone has any problem (e.g.: Q: "I'm having trouble FTPing some files..." - A: "Well you must only have 240 files per folder")....and I think some people are being led by if not false, then clearly not always true facts.

Specifically, I think all three of your bullet points that include the number 240 are clearly debatable on a large percentage of systems.
You may wish to include the data from the link above that states the 240 maximum characters in path. In truth - I think maybe this is what you were trying to say with your "total folder depth" bullet point, but this isn't number of folders - it is number of characters in the path.

Anyway - I leave it up to whether you choose to update it. As mentioned the scene isn't large at this point, but if it were me I would want the data to be as accurate as possible.

Lastly, any additional data you have/can remember about how your box was modded and with what softwares/apps/dashes you experienced these issues with would be appreciated. I hope to correlate this with the one other person who claims to have had this issue when I hear back from them.

Thanks again for your time.