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Yeah I got some PAL only games. I'll stick with NTSC for everything except PAL exclusives. Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by deadlegion
Although I'm bit confused with later comments. I have to read them more carefully. Reading those now I'm not sure do I get 60 fps.
Don't get 60Hz and 60fps confused. 60Hz is the refresh rate, it doesn't necessarily mean the game you're playing is 60fps.
There are some fairly recent games that are only 30fps.
Interesting that PAL TV you linked too. It is obviously one of those rare(r) ones which does not support NTSC. But what the guy probably can't test is whether it supports PAL60. If it does not then that indeed is a very unusual thing for any PAL TV manufactured in the last 30 years or more.
The easiest way to do that would be with a PAL Dreamcast. As I said earlier, is one of the few consoles it is known for certain use PAL60 for the PAL games 60Hz mode that most of them offer thanks to Sega making developers include a 60Hz option. That is despite the fact that the PAL DC can be forced into outputting genuine NTSC via a DC-X boot disc or a region change mod.
DC-X (there are a couple of boot discs like this) does not force display that is the game itself, but it does allow games with U J boot codes to boot on E consoles that otherwise would not, self boot rips (aka Mil-CD) that just alter the IP.BIN to include J, U & E on boot, only real issue is via RGB SCART as it happens but it is a software restriction and only with certain games most have been been cracked (Mostly J games as well but a few U games I don't remember any E games with RGB SCART issues but it has been some years since I used SCART with my Dreamcast) VGA also had it's own restrictions, though for some of those games it has been cracked very recently as well as new 60 fps cracks for the few games that ran at 30 as well as tons of older hacks for 60fps as well as a bunch of new widescreen aspect hacks though still runs at 640x480 for those games as the max the Dreamcast can output is 640x480, a mix of hard hacking as well as done via cheat codes
Yeah there are UK TV's old enough to not include RGB SCART but a Component SCART instead that do not support 60Hz signals obviously even older sets had no SCART at all and yes this was mostly a UK standard
I did not know about the 100Hz TV's though but mostly because I never had one so had no interest in finding info on them and no way of testing on my own
Jap RGB SCART and UK RGB SCART are slightly different from what I have read up on those
At the end of the day this is working for the OP though and that is all that counts at the end of the day :)
PAL 60 and NTSC 60 are slightly different but not enough to prevent the image working via RGB SCART
CRT TV's from the UK it was never common for NTSC to be an include though you could get them it was never so common that every set has it included or even most even the first few LCD sets did not support NTSC signal via anything but RGB SCART, today it is different as even the cheapest of sets include NTSC signal support via all connections
I'm doing some testing on my PAL JVC 32" WS using one of my softmodded Xboxes as that allows me to swap easily between PAL and NTSC using the Enigmah Video Changer App as well as selecting PAL50 or PAL60 from the UnleashX dashboard Video Settings.
It's a bit boring but I'm going through all the Xbox cable types I have Composite, S-Video, SCART Composite adapter, SCART S-Video adapter, SCART RGB and Component.
The TV has separate phono inputs for Composite AV and a S-Video socket, 2 x RGB SCART sockets and a AV SCART socket that supports S-Video by manual selection. Also, and unusually for a PAL TV, it has manually selectable TV Colour Settings Region options: Auto, PAL, NTSC 3.58 and NTSC 4.43.
So far I've only tested the separate Composite AV and S-Video connections with PAL50, PAL60 and NTSC. I'll report back when I've also tested the SCART adapters and SCART RGB cables with reference to the matters we've been discussed here.
I've seen that before, I don't believe it's that unusual for over here at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAbysmalDark
It's JVC so you see that on other Japanese brands like Sony. But those Japanese brands didn't have SCART over here just all the other standardised sockets, including component even on sets that weren't even ED capable let alone HD.
Of course I'm assuming we're talking about later sets.
One of the things I think I've discovered in my testing is that the Xbox in PAL mode supposedly supports PAL60. That's what they call it and indeed it might well be PAL60 BUT I've tested it on two Xboxes (a v1.1 and a v1.6) using three different, fully wired, SCART RGB cables and I'm convinced it is not a RGB display. It has the same 'twittering' artifacts as a Composite AV cable and which do not appear when used with PAL50 (576i/50Hz) or with the PAL console swapped to NTSC (480i/60Hz)
It still could be that particular JVC CRT PAL TV so I'm going to redo the tests on my other CRT, a Sony Wega which also has a 100Hz/120Hz refresh rate option. It is actually the TV I use, rarely now, for PAL only games on a variety of consoles. It gives me the best PQ from SCART RGB cables I've ever seen, that's why I still have it.
So if the quality drops to Composite AV levels when using PAL60 then it will confirm there is, at least, something additional to complain about the PAL Xbox's video support options even at this late stage.
I've always been suspicious of the Xbox PQ when using PAL60 with SCART RGB cables. My advice has always been for PAL Xbox owners to region swap their console to NTSC and never look back.
One of the things I think I've discovered in my testing so far is that the Xbox in PAL mode supposedly supports PAL60. That's what they call it and indeed it might well be PAL60 BUT I've tested it on two Xboxes (a v1.1 and a v1.6) using three different, fully wired, SCART RGB cables and I'm convinced it is not a RGB display. It has the same 'twittering' artifacts as a Composite AV cable and which do not appear when used with PAL50 (576i/50Hz) or with the PAL console swapped to NTSC (480i/60Hz)
It still could be that particular JVC CRT PAL TV so I'm going to redo the tests on my other CRT, a Sony Wega which also has a 100Hz/120Hz refresh rate option. It is actually the TV I use, rarely now, for PAL only games on a variety of consoles. It gives me the best PQ from SCART RGB cables I've ever seen, that's why I still have it.
So if the quality drops to Composite AV levels when using PAL60 then it will confirm there is, at least, something additional to complain about the PAL Xbox's video support options even at this late stage.
I've always been suspicious of the Xbox PQ when using PAL60 with SCART RGB cables. My advice has always been for PAL Xbox owners to region swap their console to NTSC and never look back.
The game itself must support PAL 60 for this to work correctly though I know some custom Dash's do let you force PAL 60 but forcing 60Hz on game that only got programmed for 50Hz will have issues of some sort most noticeable one would be sync with speech but there are other issues also (There are games though that do not officially support 60Hz but do still have it there and run fine without hickups)
A NTSC patched dash though is a very good idea those PAL games that support 50Hz only will still run at 50Hz by default, a few PAL only games have been cracked to run at 60Hz though but not all, overall though more games are playable with the Dash patched
I use component though and with a Plasma TV so my result will be different I guess there plus it was aimed at getting games to run from HDD and 480p, a bit of hacking done here and there to get them working
Results got added to https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing still needs tweaking and added to, but only when I am actively using my Xbox that at the moment I am not
I did start off without the dash patched so was using XBMC to run at NTSC 60 or PAL 60 most of the games default to the correct one anyway but a couple got forced via the Dash, later I corrected the PAL 50 to 60 manually but not all games can be forced by either method and a few will but will not play correctly like that and have some unusual side effects and a few NTSC games do not run correctly with the Dash in PAL mode even when using the correct NTSC display set up (One I never figured out why)
going from 480i to 480p does not seem to have any difference with my TV (Other TV's it seems to be an obvious difference) asides from the actual Dash display that does have the interlaced blur otherwise games looked the same in 480i as they do in 480p, but I put this down to the TV set I was using but the dash I was using does seem to be lower res at 480i than it is at 480p for reasons that are beyond me, I would guess that is an effect from the retail dash display setup for 480i or 576i
It is definitely 480i/60Hz but just because console is PAL and set to PAL doesn't mean the output at 60Hz is PAL60. It can be genuine NTSC ie. 480i/60Hz and in the case of a PAL PS2 that is what it is, according to the information I've always referred too about such matters. It is also born out by my own practical experience.
The information out there about PAL60 is very technical, confusing and contradictory but my recent research has found plenty of apparently authoritative posts and articles that indicate PAL60 and NTSC 4.43 are not the same but may be able to display both formats satisfactorily. NTSC 3.58 is the standard NTSC format.
What this may mean is that my JVC CRT TV is actually not truly PAL60 compatible and is using NTSC 4.43 to display such output. Maybe the 'twittering" I described when using a SCART RGB cable is an artifact of this format display compromise rather than it not being RGB.
Testing on the Sony CRT, which states it supports the same PAL, NTSC 3.58 and NTSC 4.43, is probably not going help confirm this one way or the other. Checking back from my old PAL now dead TV's instruction manuals (Sharp, Grundig, Philips, Bush) they too never specified PAL60 either. Support is always shown as PAL (the broadcast standard) and also NTSC 3.58, NTSC 4.43 when connected to external equipment.
I'm beginning to suspect now that genuine PAL60 support TVs are rarer than I thought. Many of them could be using NTSC 4.43. How that displays true PAL60 output from a console may vary with the TV and affect PQ.
EDIT
"I'm beginning to suspect now that genuine PAL60 support TVs are rarer than I thought."
This is now confirmed as WRONG. It is, as I speculated earlier, just my JVC that has the PAL60 display issue.
I tested it with, so far, two other PAL CRTs, using a PAL Dreamcast which I know for sure is a console that outputs PAL60 when you select the in-game 60Hz option. Both the other TVs (Sony and Philips), although having no mention of PAL60 in their manuals happily switched to 60Hz. But not the JVC whether I leave it on Auto or manually select the display format.
I can force NTSC display with the DC by using a DC-X boot disc (I guess others would work too) but as far PAL60 goes it is a non-starter. However that does make me more suspicious of the PAL Xbox's PAL60 option because with that option ticked it still displays fine when it is region changed back to PAL on the JVC.
BTW PAL Dreamcasts are actually a bit odd when used with SCART RGB cables generally as they will only display properly, PAL50 or PAL60, if you use a RGB enabled SCART socket. Most other consoles and devices using SCART will simply swap to Composite AV if you use a non-RGB socket. Not the DC it displays as an almost black screen. However if you turn up the brightness you can see a ghostly image of the GUI.
The Sega Dreamcast RGB SCART cable, the best made official manufacturer's SCART cable I've used, is only wired for RGB display. But even if you use a third party, fully wired RGB SCART cable it gives the same result if used with a non-RGB SCART socket.
To get a Composite AV display from the DC you need the standard phono plug cable although that can be used with a SCART adapter.
I'm even more confused now. Does moded PAL PS2 output 60Hz when playing NTSC games or it only runs them in 60 fps and outputs only 50 Hz? That is my guess. In that case is it better to use PAL games? Do PAL games run smoother because PS2 has to work little less to run games in 50 Hz than 60 Hz?
Every PS2 console can output both modes as long as your TV can accept both mode, mods only make it so other regions can boot
Some PAL games actually have a 50Hz and 60Hz option
Very few games run at 60fps most will be running at 30fps for 60Hz and 25 fps for 50Hz
as for 50Hz running smoother than 60Hz or vice versa nope in theory 60Hz runs smoother because there are mode frames per second but in reality you are not going to notice this anyway, the first and last frame per second is exactly the same for both 50Hz and 60Hz or 25fps and 30fps and same for 50fps and 60fps
also remember that the res is different between PAL and NTSC or PAL 50 and PAL 60
So resolution should be little better in PAL 50 versions if developers took advantage of that but how can I know if my PAL TV can produce refresh rate of 60 Hz or only 50 Hz? Is there any tool I can check that?
If your tv doesn't have any OSD that gives you such information then the only way would be to have external hardware I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by ¸Bero1707
If you have a device plugged into your tv that you know for sure is outputting a certain signal that is one way of doing it...by that I mean a device forced to output PAL 60 only (or whatever signal you want to test).