An odd question about time travel...

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Originally Posted by Xaenn

I personally reject determinism, I think it is folly.

But in rejecting determinism you are accepting that the future is not yet determined. If the future has not yet been determined, it cannot possibly be known. God cannot know it because it is not possible to know. Just wrap your head around that one for a second, it makes perfect sense. If the future could be known, then it must already be determined...determinism.

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Umm... with that logic, God cannot know the future. But if he has a different existence to us, why couldn't you say he exists both in the past and the future at the same time? He would technically only know the present, and even that in a different way than we humans do, percieving the future just as you would percieve a wave upon the surface of a lake. Time need not be a linear thing. Seeing all the possibilities at every time, even if you do not know surely which exact route time will take, is knowing all of the future and past.

That might not make much sense, I'm pretty tired right now. ^^;;;

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Originally Posted by Xaenn

I personally reject determinism, I think it is folly.

But in rejecting determinism you are accepting that the future is not yet determined. If the future has not yet been determined, it cannot possibly be known. God cannot know it because it is not possible to know. Just wrap your head around that one for a second, it makes perfect sense. If the future could be known, then it must already be determined...determinism.

I am a proponent of free will. I think saying otherwise is a cop out from all responsibilities you have as a human.

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I can reject determinism and still belive that somethings but not all things will happen. I don't belive any off us have destinys as it were, nor do I belive "once saved always saved." A person is what they do, not who they are, If you understand what I mean.

Its just the idea that all things are determind means that someone is to blame for everything. For example, when someone dies, and a person says "its his rightfull time" that would mean someone had to have chosen that person deserved to die at that time. Now I dont accept that, at all, what kind of evil would choose children (or anyone) die at a certain time? (before naturaly)

But yes, I do belive what god says will happen, because he can do I anything, I belive. Even stop Determinism.

I to agree about free will.

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Originally Posted by pkt-zer0

Umm... with that logic, God cannot know the future.

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That was the point, that God couldn't possibly know the future.

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But if he has a different existence to us, why couldn't you say he exists both in the past and the future at the same time? He would technically only know the present, and even that in a different way than we humans do, percieving the future just as you would percieve a wave upon the surface of a lake. Time need not be a linear thing. Seeing all the possibilities at every time, even if you do not know surely which exact route time will take, is knowing all of the future and past.

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I had started to respond, but in re-reading what you wrote I realized I was misinterpreting. I agree that God could see every possible future that may occur. But that is an infinite number of possibilities. That's not even seeing the future really though. One could figure out that knowledge based on every single possible action that could be taken (which of course is far beyond human comprehension). But as you said, he wouldn't know which route time would take. So such knowledge is completely meaningless. If you do not know which of the infinite futures would occur, then how can you claim to see the future? Only the path that is realized is the future. The others are simplied possibilities that were never realized.

Xena: We both agree against determinism. I think the only difference you're having with me is that you are saying that God going through on his promises means he can see the future. One with omnipotence can make anything occur, regardless of a vision of what would occur given it had not intervened.

I'm saying that the future cannot be known, but one with omnipotence could shape it into whatever it desired.

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Originally Posted by Xaenn

Xena: We both agree against determinism. I think the only difference you're having with me is that you are saying that God going through on his promises means he can see the future. One with omnipotence can make anything occur, regardless of a vision of what would occur given it had not intervened.

I'm saying that the future cannot be known, but one with omnipotence could shape it into whatever it desired.

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Of course, After all, Its gods will that it will be done, so if it is done, its his will thats done it. God can make parts of the future if he wants to.

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Originally Posted by Xaenn

So such knowledge is completely meaningless. If you do not know which of the infinite futures would occur, then how can you claim to see the future? Only the path that is realized is the future. The others are simplied possibilities that were never realized.

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That's assuming there is only one future. Those possibilities might be realized, but not in the time continuum we exist in. But that would assume alternate timelines and such pretty interesting, but not that possible things. Another thought: You move forward through time. You can't go backwards. But what would happen if you stepped sideways?

Ever seen Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure?

At one point, Keanu Reeves steals his father's keys. In the future, without his present self actually being there. He(Future self) then goes back into time before his present self arrives at the police station and places the keys in the bushes.

Present self Keanu goes and checks the bushes and finds the keys that he has yet to steal/place.

So, using that knowledge you can figure out if time travel is possible using this simple system.
Start building a time travel device, then tell yourself that you will return to THE NOW after you have completed said device to give it to yourself, so you didn't have to finish building it. If you don't magically appear next to yourself with a time travel ready unit. You fail and time travel is just as attainable as being as rad as I am. Thank you for your time, the lesson is now over.

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Originally Posted by pkt-zer0

Another thought: You move forward through time. You can't go backwards. But what would happen if you stepped sideways?

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Building on the thought of time as a dimension, it would only have positive and minus. Just as you can only go forward or backwards on the x axis. To move left or right you would move along the y axis. Unless you propose that there are multiple time dimensions...

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Originally Posted by Xaenn

Building on the thought of time as a dimension, it would only have positive and minus. Just as you can only go forward or backwards on the x axis. To move left or right you would move along the y axis. Unless you propose that there are multiple time dimensions...

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Now why did you have to get all mathematical or geometrical or whatever it is.

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Originally Posted by Dingy

Now why did you have to get all mathematical or geometrical or whatever it is.

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Because a dimension only has two directions, so stepping sideways in time makes no sense, unless there are two dimensions of time.

x would be forward and backward
y would be left and right
z would be up and down

That and I know how much you love math. :P

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Originally Posted by Dingy

Now why did you have to get all mathematical or geometrical or whatever it is.

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Xaenn speaks for himeself, but naturaly I back him up.

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Originally Posted by Xaenn

Building on the thought of time as a dimension, it would only have positive and minus. Just as you can only go forward or backwards on the x axis. To move left or right you would move along the y axis. Unless you propose that there are multiple time dimensions...

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Before Einstein's theory of relativity, it wasn't really even suspected that time was the 4th dimension. So, yes, I'm proposing exactly that, there might be more time dimensions, that we can't directly examine. That would most probably mean multiple parallel universes, each timeline belonging to one universe.
Things get so much different if you add another dimension to them - but it does not mean that it won't work without that extra dimension.
Taking another approach: how do you know that the possibilities of any given situation do not create a system of possibilities, with the one that has the highest probability being the one that is actually perceivable to us. Remember quantum physics: You might actually not be where you are, it's just that there's a HUGE possibility of your being right there. :P Okay, that's exaggerating a bit too much, maybe. The thing is, that nothing is localized into a single point, or in this case, a single point of time.

Superstring theory suggests 10 or 26 dimensions (due to the fact that internal coherence is only maintained at these dimension states), but the extra dimensions are bound into the Planck Length (roughly 1.616*10^-35 metres). Basically, it would require an inordinate amount of energy to even observe them directly (though theoretically their interactions with the four dimensions could be observed). Not to say superstring theory is correct, but it's the furthest we've gotten to the Grand Unified Theory so far.

If I could travel back in time, I'd go back to the Roman Empire. Learn some Latin.

This is so educational.

I know a little of relativity Albert Einstein put forward his general theory of relativity. His amazing discovery was that gravity not only shapes the universe but also governs the way we see and measure it. Why, gravity even affects the way time is measured!

an illustration helps clarify matters. Imagine space to be like a boundless rubber sheet. Now, placing an object on this flexible mat will cause a dimple, or depression. According to Einstein�s description, the earth, the sun, and the stars are like objects on a flexible mat, causing space to curve. If you roll another object onto the rubber sheet, it will be deflected into a curved path by the depressed area around the first object.

Similarly, the earth, the planets, and the stars move along curved paths, following the natural �depressions� in space. Even a beam of light is deflected when passing near massive objects in the universe. Furthermore, Einstein�s equations predicted that light traveling against gravity would lose some of its energy, as noted by a slight shift in color toward the red end of the spectrum. Physicists call this phenomenon gravitational redshift.

Thus, besides clearing up the discrepancies arising from Newton�s discoveries, Einstein�s theory revealed new secrets of how gravity works in the universe.

I feel it fits in with rainbows, a semicircular bow, or arc, exhibiting a spectrum of colors Complicated theories and formulas are used to explain the formation of a rainbow. Basically, it seems that as white light enters a raindrop it is refracted and dispersed into different colors, the drop acting like a tiny prism. Each color strikes the inner surface of the drop and is reflected back at a different and specific angle. Thus an observer sees a bow with all seven colors of the spectrum (from the inside of the arc outward: violet, indigo, blue, green, yellow, orange, and red), though these may blend so that only four or five are clear. Sometimes a larger and less distinct �secondary� bow is formed with the colors reversed. Scientists are still studying the rainbow. Carl B. Boyer observes: Within a raindrop the interaction of light energy with matter is so intimate that one is led directly to quantum mechanics and the theory of relativity. . . . Although much is known about the production of the rainbow, little has been learned about its perception.

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Originally Posted by Xaenn

x would be forward and backward
y would be left and right
z would be up and downp

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*runs*

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That and I know how much you love math.

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Evil.

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Originally Posted by Xena

I know a little of relativity Albert Einstein put forward his general theory of relativity.

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Me too! "You put your hand on a hot stove for one minute and it seems like an hour. You sit with a pretty girl for one hour and it seems like a minute"==Relativity.