An odd question about time travel...

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Originally Posted by McGuinty

It's not 100% proven but there is a lot of convincing evidence out there. I know of one experiment that was done where they made a light diffraction pattern through a slot using only a single photon at a time. the only way photons can make a diffraction pattern is by interfering with other photons, but there was only a single photon passing through the slit at a time, so the only explanation is that other single photons made simultaneously in other universes were acting on the single photon in our universe to make the diffraction pattern.

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Matter is not localized into a point at any given time, as the Heisenberg uncertainty theory says. So, the photon merely interfered with itself. We once had an example where the uncertainty of determining velocity was given, and computing from the mass and size of the given object (and electron, in this case, speeding with 1/30 of light), and something like 12 meters resulted for uncertainty of determining position. That, in case you didn't realise, is a LOT. Reaching such velocities would be pretty hard though, due to mass also relativistically increasing with velocity.

Electrons are so small that 6,000,000,000,000,000,000 pass through a 100-watt light bulb in one second. Least elusive of all the elementary particles, electrons are like fickle vagabonds that are easily transferred from place to place even by simple friction. When you walk across a carpet, your shoes may pick up billions of them that spread themselves over your body, only to gather and leap pell-mell through the air as a spark from your finger if you reach out to touch a light switch.
All the positive charge of the atom and most of its mass resided in a region 1/10000 the size of the atom itself. That gave rise to the popular image most of us have of the atom: a small central core or nucleus surrounded by fast-moving electrons that orbit it like bees around a hive.

Put simply, a conservation law says that if a conserved quantity is measured before an event, that quantity should total up to the same amount after the event.

To illustrate, imagine a complex of four tennis courts surrounded by a high fence to help keep balls inside. As the players arrive we give each set of players 10 identical balls and tell them not to worry about keeping track of the specific balls they start with. During simultaneous games the balls would likely fly into adjacent courts and get used there too. Some balls may eventually get used by all players. After all games are finished we collect the balls. We expect to get back the same number we handed out. If we have fewer we would conclude that some flew over the fence, were still in the courts, or had gone out with the players. No other explanation makes sense: tennis balls do not disappear into thin air. In this case, �tennis balls are conserved.�

Conservation laws rule the physical world. Nothing can happen that violates a conservation law: there are no lawbreakers among the citizens of the world of elementary particles.

The electron is stable because of conservation of mass and electric charge. It is the lightest charged particle. There are lighter particles than the electron but all of them are invariably neutral in electric charge. If the electron were to decay into one of these lighter particles it would have to get rid of its charge but it cannot because that would violate the law of charge conservation. It cannot decay into heavier charged particles because that would violate the law of mass conservation�as impossible as slicing a one-pound loaf of bread and getting slices that weigh two pounds. So the electron cannot decay because there is simply �no place to go.�

The proton is stable because it would need to violate a different conservation law to decay. On the other hand, the neutron is stable as long as it has a proton to snuggle up to. Put a neutron into �solitary confinement� and it decays in about 15 minutes.

Kenneth Ford, in his book The World of Elementary Particles, emphasized the importance of conservation laws in this way: �The �normal� thing is for a particle to undergo decay and transmute itself into other lighter particles. For reasons which are not fully understood there are two �abnormal� particles, the proton and the electron, which are prohibited from decaying. According to this larger view of the particles, there are certain rules of nature (conservation laws) which happen to prevent the decay of these two particles. Because of this chance, the construction of a material world is possible.

�Of course, since there is only one Universe, and one set of natural laws, it does not make much sense to say that a particular state of affairs in the world exists by chance. But this view of the multiplicity of particles continues the process, begun by Copernicus, of making man feel more and more humble when facing the design of nature. We and our world exist by the grace of certain conservation laws which stabilize a few particles and permit an orderly structure to be built upon the normal chaos of the submicroscopic world.�

well yes, i am familiar with heisenberg, but i'm not talking about matter, photons have no mass. of course matter and energy are inextricably linked so what you're saying is probably bang on and i am probably totally up my ass. it has been awhile since i have taken any sort of physics or math. Actually, i don't know why i keep posting about this. I'm going to be making dentures for a living, what the fuck do I need to know about the secrets of all existence to perform that duty?

oh and xena, that bit about the laws of conservation also makes a good lesson for why nobody can get richer anymore without making someone else poorer.

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Originally Posted by McGuinty

oh and xena, that bit about the laws of conservation also makes a good lesson for why nobody can get richer anymore without making someone else poorer.

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Yeah, I know its not the subject, but I tought I would have my say on electrons lol.

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Originally Posted by Xena

Your second sentace is not really true is it? You can plan for a holiday, does'nt mean it's determind.

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If your actions are completely predictable, then you are only acting according to a preset pattern...like a machine.

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Thats easy, beacuse god can change anything, He has "set things in motion" that will happen. Like the destruction of Goverments, and the end of this system, and the paradise earth. You need to belive that though, or what is the point of religion? So our grand future is determind, just not every day little things.

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That's a little bit different from the actual value. You're saying God knows the future in the respect that he will make certain events occur. He doesn't know the future then, only that he will act in a certain way, and that his hand is more powerful than that of man. So he can make certain events occur. But that's a far cry from knowing what Skinner will do in the next three hours. And if one could know exactly what Skinner would do, then his actions would be pre-determined.

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Actually, i don't know why i keep posting about this. I'm going to be making dentures for a living, what the fuck do I need to know about the secrets of all existence to perform that duty?

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Because it's interesting and there's a hell of a lot more to life than just filling a role. :P

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Originally Posted by Xaenn

That's a little bit different from the actual value. You're saying God knows the future in the respect that he will make certain events occur. He doesn't know the future then, only that he will act in a certain way, and that his hand is more powerful than that of man. So he can make certain events occur. But that's a far cry from knowing what Skinner will do in the next three hours. And if one could know exactly what Skinner would do, then his actions would be pre-determined.

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I don't know, I'm saying he has the power to shape the future yes. So in accord, what he says, will happen. So he says those things will happen and they will, what means are used to make them happen are not mine to say, all I need to know is that they will happen, being humble in knowladge.

I don't know any Skinner, not now.

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If your actions are completely predictable, then you are only acting according to a preset pattern...like a machine.

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and....?

I mean thats true, but is it in practice, I think not.

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Originally Posted by Xena

I don't know, I'm saying he has the power to shape the future yes. So in accord, what he says, will happen. So he says those things will happen and they will, what means are used to make them happen are not mine to say, all I need to know is that they will happen, being humble in knowladge.

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I'm saying being able to determine the future doesn't mean you have the ability to see the exact state of the future. Unless you exert force so the future becomes exactly what you want. God can't see the exact state the future will be in, because it is not yet determined. If God could see the exact state of the future then determinism is inevitable.

Therefore, God wouldn't need to know what will happen in order to make the future look a certain way at a given point in time. Because his omnipotence grants him that ability.

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I mean thats true, but is it in practice, I think not.

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what?

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Originally Posted by Xena

(long, long post)

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Protons are not ultimately stable. Just really, VERY stable, the most stable particle consisting of three quarks, if I'm correct. You can't rip one into two, but you can try it, in theory. You'll get a lot of mesons, and energy converting into matter at that level of force.
The conservation theory is still valid, considering that energy = mass * a friggin' huge number.
So, nothing can disappear into thin air, but it can blow up quite spectacularly. :P

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Originally Posted by Xaenn

I'm saying being able to deterhe exact state the future will be in, because it is not yet determined. Ifmine the future doesn't mean you have the ability to see the exact state of the future. Unless you exert force so the future becomes exactly what you want. God can't see t God could see the exact state of the future then determinism is inevitable.

Therefore, God wouldn't need to know what will happen in order to make the future look a certain way at a given point in time. Because his omnipotence grants him that ability.

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It does'nt matter, mabye that is true, mabye. The important thing is always the last thing on peoples mind. If you know what will happen (in the grand scheme of things), should you not plan for that? the why is not yet known, mabye god will just use divine intervention, if that is his plan. I don't know.

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Originally Posted by Xaenn

what?

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You said if.

pwnd :P

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Originally Posted by pkt-zer0

Protons are not ultimately stable. Just really, VERY stable, the most stable particle consisting of three quarks, if I'm correct. You can't rip one into two, but you can try it, in theory. You'll get a lot of mesons, and energy converting into matter at that level of force.
The conservation theory is still valid, considering that energy = mass * a friggin' huge number.
So, nothing can disappear into thin air, but it can blow up quite spectacularly.

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Yes, mabye.... I've seen people blowing up... :P

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Originally Posted by Xena

It does'nt matter, mabye that is true, mabye. The important thing is always the last thing on peoples mind.

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Determinism is contradictory to the idea of free will, which seems so very very central to Christianity. If your actions are already determined then you can't be held accountable for anything. I would think you would immediately denounce such. However, if determinism is false, then God cannot know the future, because it is not determined.

Importance is definately in the eyes of the beholder.

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If you know what will happen (in the grand scheme of things), should you not plan for that? the why is not yet known, mabye god will just use divine intervention, if that is his plan. I don't know.

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Were it possible to know anything for certainty, there would be no arguments on religion. It is the fact that one cannot know for sure that brings so much controversy. You can't know something will happen, you can only believe it will.

Whoa... I just exploded... Oh well, I guess I'll learn this in 3 years, I'm just an annoying leecher that's 12 years old... :lol joke

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Originally Posted by Xaenn

Determinism is contradictory to the idea of free will, which seems so very very central to Christianity. If your actions are already determined then you can't be held accountable for anything. I would think you would immediately denounce such. However, if determinism is false, then God cannot know the future, because it is not determined.

Importance is definately in the eyes of the beholder

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Yes, I know what it is, I just don't accept it.

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Originally Posted by Xaenn

Were it possible to know anything for certainty, there would be no arguments on religion. It is the fact that one cannot know for sure that brings so much controversy. You can't know something will happen, you can only believe it will.

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Then let us say I belive it will. There is nothing more to say.

I fully know that people will not accept what I say.

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Originally Posted by Xena

Yes, I know what it is, I just don't accept it.

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Yes, so if you reject determism you reject that God can know the future.

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Then let us say I belive it will. There is nothing more to say.

I fully know that people will not accept what I say.

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There you go!

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Originally Posted by Xaenn

Yes, so if you reject determism you reject that God can know the future.

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No Determinism is were nothing is left to chance.

I've all ready said god can know the future if wants to Whats so hard to understand about that?

You are denying free will yes, yes you are.

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Originally Posted by Xaenn

There you go!

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It's the same for you... I just focus on better things.

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Originally Posted by Xena

No Determinism is were nothing is left to chance.

I've all ready said god can know the future if wants to Whats so hard to understand about that?

You are denying free will yes, yes you are.

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I personally reject determinism, I think it is folly.

But in rejecting determinism you are accepting that the future is not yet determined. If the future has not yet been determined, it cannot possibly be known. God cannot know it because it is not possible to know. Just wrap your head around that one for a second, it makes perfect sense. If the future could be known, then it must already be determined...determinism.

I am a proponent of free will. I think saying otherwise is a cop out from all responsibilities you have as a human.