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Thread: The Foreign Languages Thread

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    Default The Foreign Languages Thread

    So this is the thread where we discuss foreign languages. Language learning, translation, learning tools, tips/advice, learning habits and strategies - whatever comes to mind. This was originally meant to be a thread primarily focusing on Japanese, and I'm sure many people will use it for that purpose nonetheless, but we've decided it's a better idea to allow discussion of any foreign language.

    Note #1: This is not a Hangout-type thread. It's allowed and encouraged to talk in a foreign langauge to a certain extent, but it should be for an educational purpose. Like, if you don't understand a phrase, require a translation/explanation, or want to ask a question about a certain grammatical construction, idioms and so on.

    Note #2: Furthermore, this isn't a thread for requesting emulation-related help in a foreign language. Please keep that in mind.

    Alright, go.
    Last edited by Gare; 7th-October-2013 at 22:44.

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    Kanji should be the last thing on the list when trying to learn japanese right?
    THE BEST METHOD to run PSX games (and everything else for that matter) is via Retroarch - http://buildbot.libretro.com/nightly/
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    The Spaniard Master here is Cookie, of course... though I'm sure there's a couple of people such as I willing to help if anyone requires a further boost.

    As far as Nihon-go(es)... My kana knowledge seems to be safe; any tips for refreshing my kanji...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by God of Battle View Post
    Kanji should be the last thing on the list when trying to learn japanese right?
    No. The sooner you get used to kanji, the better. You should start memorizing them little by little, as early as possible, so that the most basic ones get ingrained into your memory, which you can use as the cornerstone to build your knowledge and learn more complex ones.

    Just my experience, take it with a grain of salt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roux! View Post
    As far as Nihon-go(es)... My kana knowledge seems to be safe; any tips for refreshing my kanji...?
    Simply sitting down and reviewing them day after day, week after week? Some people find it helpful to make up little stories based on the shape of the characters. I did this in my early stages, but nowadays I don't really do it anymore.
    Last edited by Cookie Monster; 8th-October-2013 at 00:33. Reason: merged :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roux! View Post
    The Spaniard Master here is Cookie, of course... though I'm sure there's a couple of people such as I willing to help if anyone requires a further boost.

    As far as Nihon-go(es)... My kana knowledge seems to be safe; any tips for refreshing my kanji...?
    Spanish is still on my list of languages to learn. I can read French semi-well, and I've dabbled in Italian, so hopefully I have a big headstart~!

    In terms of reading kanji, arguably just reading a lot is the most efficient way to learn. Combine that with flashcards, as they tend to be a more efficient way to make things stick than waiting for the same compound / kanji to come up a bunch of times, and you'll get used to them very quickly.

    In terms of writing, try different methods and see what works for you. Some people learn well with methods like Heisig's Remembering the Kanji (basically that story thing that Gare described), while some people learn better by just writing them a whole bunch of times. There aren't really any right or wrong answers, I don't think, and it's about finding something that is effective for you personally. Do make the effort to write by hand at every opportunity, though, as no matter how you might learn, your writing ability will leave you quickly if you don't practice! I keep a diary in Japanese, but there are lots of ways you can find of giving yourself opportunities to write in the language.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gare View Post
    No. The sooner you get used to kanji, the better. You should start memorizing them little by little, as early as possible, so that the most basic ones get ingrained into your memory, which you can use as the cornerstone to build your knowledge and learn more complex ones.

    Just my experience, take it with a grain of salt.
    I would agree with this. Don't try and brute force 3000 odd characters to begin with, as it will destroy your enthusiasm for the language, but do start on kanji as early as is possible, and work at them little by little alongside your study of other elements of the language. The two things feed into each other quite closely, and learning kanji will aid your understanding of why certain things in Japanese work the way they do, as well as make memorising vocabulary a lot easier. Also, a big part of learning a language to a high level tends to involve reading in the language, and you won't be able to read much at all unless you start to tackle kanji, as they appear in almost everything.

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    This is gonna become really handy
    When I first post in the "introductions & Farewell" thead I said that my english is very rusty and not so advanced :/ (I try to do my best remembering the basics of my english class and help myself with a translator sometimes if am not so sure what I'm writing), btw the most part of my "english education" during time was the videogames and films/series hehe

    My native language is Spanish, so If someone needs help with something don't hesitate and ask me. I will do my best for help you

    Cheers!

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    that's not stupidity or weakness, that's just human nature"

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    Yeah, that's definitely true about the writing part of Japanese. I honestly can't write kanji for shit, because whenever I conversed in Japanese, it was always in an online environment where my PC automatically converted kana. Other than that I just read (aka play games), so yeah.

    I don't see myself living in Japan any time soon, so will I really need writing? On the other hand I'm really insecure about my lack of writing skills and find it outright embarrassing.

    Quote Originally Posted by HaMM3r View Post
    This is gonna become really handy
    When I first post in the "introductions & Farewell" thead I said that my english is very rusty and not so advanced :/ (I try to do my best remembering the basics of my english class and help myself with a translator sometimes if am not so sure what I'm writing), btw the most part of my "english education" during time was the videogames and films/series hehe

    My native language is Spanish, so If someone needs help with something don't hesitate and ask me. I will do my best for help you

    Cheers!
    Honestly your English doesn't seem that bad at all. But if you need assistance with something there's a whole bunch of us that can probably help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gare View Post
    Honestly your English doesn't seem that bad at all. But if you need assistance with something there's a whole bunch of us that can probably help.
    Much much appreciated and thanks a lot Gare, I always try to do my best so others can understand as clean as possible what I'm trying to say/write hehe

    "Most people don't believe something can happen until it already has,
    that's not stupidity or weakness, that's just human nature"

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    Hooray for basic knowledge of phrases due to playing Super Robot Wars
    These games help me get Kana and Gana down, but still so many kanji... At least basic phrases like 何? and 大丈夫ですか? I got down.
    Inserting phrase here for fun- Download Links:
    Links are hidden from guests. Please register to be able to view these links. This dictionary helps me out a lot....http://tangorin.com/
    .....and the ombiki gets turned into ? diamonds .
    Last edited by Nemkoon; 8th-October-2013 at 01:32.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The VCR View Post
    Hooray for basic knowledge of phrases due to playing Super Robot Wars
    These games help me get Kana and Gana down, but still so many kanji... At least basic phrases like 何? and 大丈夫ですか? I got down.
    Inserting phrase here for fun-vガンダムは伊達じゃ ない!
    ああ、アムロさん,あなたはとてもク� ��ルです.
    This dictionary helps me out a lot....http://tangorin.com/
    .....and the ombiki gets turned into ? diamonds .
    Use [code] tags.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The VCR View Post
    Hooray for basic knowledge of phrases due to playing Super Robot Wars
    These games help me get Kana and Gana down, but still so many kanji... At least basic phrases like 何? and 大丈夫ですか? I got down.
    Inserting phrase here for fun-vガンダムは伊達じゃ ない!
    ああ、アムロさん,あなたはとてもク� ��ルです.
    This dictionary helps me out a lot....http://tangorin.com/
    .....and the ombiki gets turned into ? diamonds .
    Do what Gare told me and code your japanese, then you wont get diamonds.
    THE BEST METHOD to run PSX games (and everything else for that matter) is via Retroarch - http://buildbot.libretro.com/nightly/
    If you have any questions on how to set it up on Windows please feel free to ask, its very easy.


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    thanks.

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    Heisig
    ugh. When he told me to imagine a kanji was a monkey throwing a boomerang at a doorbell, I wanted to track him down and bludgeon him to death with his own book. (I didn't, in case you were wondering how that story ends)
    The silly mnemonic method works for right-brained people, but for the lefties, who fare better with a more logical approach, I actually recommend what many evidently discourage: Know Thy Radicals. Knowing the roots of the components making up a kanji makes it easier to etymologically delineate WHY it might be what it is. And even when there's no reason behind it, you can formulate more sensible mnemonics then those aimed entirely at people with aesthetic memories.

    I highly recommend Tagaini Jisho; it's fast, easy to use, demonstrates stroke order, and breaks down a kanji's components. You can even pull up a list of other kanji with the same elements for comparing and contrasting (because a tiny difference can make a big difference).

    As for application--and this comes from somebody who actually muscled through 1200 kanji by daily rote before I was confident enough for application--text with furigana is awesome. I recently found some short stories here
    http://thejapanesepage.com/download
    so if you can read kana, you've got the pronunciation down, and you can copy and paste into a translator for words you don't know. Evidently childrens books like Magic Treehouse and Kiki's Delivery Service also use Furigana, and a few DS games, like the Zeldas and Okami let you enable them. Even if you don't know everything you're reading, it helps your mind adapt, so you can assimilate as you go.

    And what's really made my Japanese bigger since discovering it, AGTH and ITH (game text-rippers). Aside from playing games with a crude translation right alongside the screen, for when you run into a buncha new combinations or develop a splitting headache and need a break, you can copy and paste the kanji themselves as they're extracted, rather than trying to duplicate them in a kanji dictionary by guesswork.
    --because many of those are stroke-order-sensitive. . . which is as stupid as a teacher telling you look up a word when you ask her how to spell it.
    /probably useless textwall

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikusagami View Post
    ugh. When he told me to imagine a kanji was a monkey throwing a boomerang at a doorbell, I wanted to track him down and bludgeon him to death with his own book. (I didn't, in case you were wondering how that story ends)
    The silly mnemonic method works for right-brained people, but for the lefties, who fare better with a more logical approach, I actually recommend what many evidently discourage: Know Thy Radicals. Knowing the roots of the components making up a kanji makes it easier to etymologically delineate WHY it might be what it is. And even when there's no reason behind it, you can formulate more sensible mnemonics then those aimed entirely at people with aesthetic memories.
    The radical mnemonic method is basically what Heisig asks you to do, though. He pulls some meanings out of his ass in an effort to make them easier to remember (no, Heisig, 乙 does not mean "fishguts"), but a good chunk of the parts he breaks down characters into are just their radicals, complete with the correct meanings. And while I never really made substantial use of it myself, it's basically the same as learning the radicals and making up mnemonics based on them, a few visual memory reliant stories for simple kanji aside. The stories in Heisig's book itself suck, of course, but I think the method is quite a good one, and there are plenty of resources for better stories (Reviewing the Kanji comes to mind).

    Also, I think the study of radicals as a route to breaking down the meaning of unknown kanji is of limited use myself, because determining meaning based on radicals doesn't work for even many simple kanji unless you have a very good (like... high school kokugo teacher level) knowledge of kanji roots. Something like "暗", for example. A simple kanji meaning "dark", but that would probably be the last thing you'd guess when the kanji itself has a sun included in it (or two, if you count the one in 音). In order to take a decent guess at the meaning based on the character, you'd need to know that the right part of the character is being used for its phonetic reading of "イン", which happens to be the same reading as "隠", so the kanji literally means "when the sun is hidden". Which is something that a large chunk of Japanese people don't know themselves, and something that you're probably only going to learn when you're already most of the way to fluency, if at all.

    Don't get me wrong, I think radicals can be handy as a way of remembering complex characters (it's much easier to remember what parts a kanji is made up of than remembering the whole thing as a complete picture), and obviously it's useful to know the radicals for looking up kanji in dictionaries and stuff, but I think they're only of use in disseminating the meaning of characters in a very limited amount of cases. Of course, like I say, there aren't really any right or wrong answers about how to learn kanji, and your mileage may vary.
    Last edited by Elin; 8th-October-2013 at 08:51.

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    I wholeheartedly support the use of ITH (I use it myself) but only if your knowledge of Japanese grammar is good enough. Text-rippers generally should only be used to help you look up vocab faster - machine translation programs like Atlas or Google Trans crash and burn when it comes to Japanese. In fact they'll often fail even with the simplest of sentences (I discussed this and tested a few sentences on another forum), so I'd go as far as saying they might even be harmful for your learning.

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