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Thread: Re: I have a bone to pick with u guys

  1. #1
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    Default Re: I have a bone to pick with u guys

    Sorry, guys (and gals). I was planning to leave the boards yesterday, but there was something nagging at me: the thread mentioned in the title. It has caught my attention and brought up some valid points. So I'd like to respond to it (again).

    Here's the thread that I am referring to:

    http://www.emuparadise.org/vbulletin...&threadid=8411

    First of all, I know that it is ill-advised to bring up such a topic again and I would have avoided doing so at all costs. The incident involving The Dragon in mIRC was something that I had pushed to the back of my mind and had essentially forgotten about, yet the aforementioned thread started by sakura_st elicits a more in-depth response than was received.

    In my view, the thread was locked prematurely, but we can't always be evading the serious issues, can we, though the topic that it alludes to would better be left forgotten and untouched? Apparently, cyberxion101 was in a "locking" mood that day. I think that another thread is necessary to elicit some thoughtful and meaningful discussion regarding the issue. Only a handful of responses could be submitted for her thread and they were from the same few people as well.

    Okay, here's what I think: the disagreement in IRC was a valid one - Sarcast had the right (and power) to enforce his rules, which are perfectly acceptable. There is an unwritten code stating that we do not swear in public - though it might seem trivial to some individuals to this board, as I have gathered. The "freedom of speech" issue will inevitably continue to persist - and there will always be people with different opinions. Such a rule in IRC is perfectly justified and enforceable. Rules, and rules, and individuals get sanctioned for failing to follow them, as I said earlier.

    Before I get anyone up in arms about my statements, I'd like to mention that The Dragon recently apologized for his actions, and I greatly respect and appreciate him for his humility. It seems like he was somewhat curious to see how others would respond to his situation and point of view. I believe that it was a good and appropriate decision by Sarcast to unban The Dragon from the forums and IRC. Both of the final responses by the members involved in this little dispute/disagreement were very mature and demonstrate forgiveness and respect for the other, which are often difficult things to do in light of the situation. And they are trying to re-establish communication links. I applaud both of them for their actions and am extremely pleased to see a reasonable resolution to this argument. It required both of them to make compromises: Sarcast gave The Dragon another chance, and The Dragon finally decided to "back down" (unlike some other individual whose name is better left unmentioned - he was given a second chance by Cosmic3K and opted to leave). Nightfall Z tried to advise The Dragon by PM, telling him that starting such a thread would be a bad idea, and I appreciate Nightfall for taking such a mature action. Perhaps such an issue would not have been so grossly distorted out of proportion had The Dragon gave in earlier. But I understand The Dragon's position, and he had an obligation to defend his point of view. And it would be difficult (not to mention embarrassing) to "back off", not only for The Dragon but also for Sarcast. As long as they were in that thread, they essentially had to defend their opinions. The words which Sarcast brought up in his discussion were arguably somewhat inappropriate (but such an issue has been discussed). I forgive The Dragon for his actions - I'm sure that they were simply a "mistake in judgement" and should be pardoned. I'm sure that both of them were quite unhappy about the disagreement initially, and consequently their statements were perfectly understandable. Their resolution demonstrated a great deal of maturity.

    This brings me to sakura_st's thread in which she essentially expressed her disapproval of the way in which we emuparadise members responded to that matter. In no way am I suggesting that such a thread was unjustified - I believe that it was a valid request, and I thank her for taking the initiative to start such a thread. "Respect" issues do exist around the board, and, inevitably, they will always manifest themselves, in no way or another. We should treat others as equals unless they successively violate the rules (written or unwritten) or they perform some extremely disagreeable action. Only then are we forced to take drastic action against them - and that's the mods' jobs, not ours. And even then we should not address them in a condescending manner - I'm not saying that I have a problem with the mods, but I have seen quite a few blatantly disrespectful posts (with cussing) in my time here by members of this board. I fully forgive them and take their statements in stride. Though it would be much more agreeable if they expressed their view in a more "respectful" manner and chose their words differently.

    Ultimately, that brings me to the question of your definition of "disrespect". I believe that pointing out what some people might have done wrong is a perfectly justifiable action (which is essentially what happened in The Dragon issue to both members on the opposite sides of the mild conflict). I do agree that the situation got a bit out-of-hand (and I'm pretty sure that many people would agree with me on that point as well). I'm glad to put this behind us and I'm sure that it was in the best interests of the forum to do so.

    But as for disrespectful, the majority of posts in response to the issue was justified in my opinion. A few could be phrased in more "agreeable" terms, but that's it.

    As for sakura_st's complaint that we often jump into issues without talking to both sides, I'm sure that we'd all love to do that. But in a practical instance, that's quite hard to do. In either case, some degree of a bias/paradigm is inevitably presented in an individual's response. Consequently, we are left to construct what we can out of the previous posts in the topic. Furthermore, it would be quite an inopportune time to ask the individuals involved in the "conflict" as to "what happened" - chances are you'll receive the "bias" of another third-party member. Now if we could actually get the story "straight", that would be great, but such a clear definition of the situation is only attainable under ideal/theoretical circumstances. Nothing is black and white. So ultimately, we are forced to make assumptions (some bigger than others). Yes, I am guilty of doing that too (and making a very wrong assumption - The Dragon knows about what) and I apologize sincerely for doing so. The safest way if we don't want to make any assumptions is probably not to post in such a thread. But that too is a paradox in itself as the individual involved in such a conflict are inevitably seeking some input/reaction/opinions regarding the matter. The individual starting such a thread probably expects to see some type of response - if not, they usually have a mental construction that individuals disagree with their points of view or simply dislike them as a person. And such alienation is quite hard especially if there is a conflict on hand already. In some instances, the thread could be regarded as a "coping strategy" and an "outlet" for the individual's pent-up feelings- which is why some of the individual's posts (from the first and second party) in that thread were somewhat disagreeable. It's a natural instinct. The other alternative would be to give extremely "wishy-washy" responses to such a thread - but those are generally disagreeable as well. But sakura_st was disapproving mainly of the third-party responses.

    Some degree of support from a third-party member is hence expected from the other members of the board (for either side of the issue). But how can we offer anything of that sort without making some notion of an assumption? We make assumptions/generalizations in math. Sociology is a generalizing discipline. Heck, without assumptions, we wouldn't get very far. And if we do make a wrong assumption (as we often do), shouldn't it just be regarded as a "wrong turn" and shouldn't we be corrected but at the same time pardoned for doing so? It's just "another day at the ball part" - another "mistake in judgement."

    From sakura_st's post, I also came to the conclusion that she somewhat distrusts/questions the sincerity of the emuparadise members, saying that they welcomed her "what I would like to think of now as friendship. But shouldn't individuals be free to take either side of the issue - it's not because of the "authority figure" that I picked a particular side, it's just that there's a standard code of conduct that should be followed. Ideally, we'd all get the story straight and make benign posts, remaining calm, but such a reaction would essentially lead to reticence, an aforementioned problem. Subsequently, we often take up one side of the issue, basing our posts on the previous ones. In all likelihood, the first few posts are going to be from the individuals with the disagreement. Consequently, that's about all the info we have really; it is difficult to get a reliable account in either circumstance. So aren't those somewhat unrealistic expectations? I believe that individuals should speak more respectfully (in terms of less cussing, using more euphemisms and less forceful language), but to stop expressing our points of view would be to cut off communication and discussion. And that's what forums are ultimately built around, aren't they? Hence, we have an obligation to respond (and hence take one side of the issue or another). Without dissenting opinions, the forums would be a boring place, as Maison Gray would say. I know I'm taking this out of context; he's welcome to slam me a couple times if he disagrees with my point of view. (continued on next post)
    Last edited by Laguna; 24th-August-2002 at 01:50.

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    (continued) What sakura_st saw as disrespectful was primarily because of her perspective on the issue - she saw us as "ganging up" on The Dragon. But there were diverse points of view - and I see her statement as the result of a paradigm that forced her to see merely what we were doing against The Dragon. She had spoken to The Dragon before and he seemed like a nice guy. I agree that he's a nice guy, and I sense that we weren't trying to "gang up" on him just for the sake of being on Sarcast's side. We are conditioned not to swear, and, naturally, that would be the side that I would expect most people to take. Ultimately, we respected each other's points of views, and there were people on both sides of the issue. If we were just following an "authority figure", we wouldn't have challenged his statements. And really, are we those type of followers? I certainly hope not.

    From a practical sense, it is quite difficult to take one point of view regarding the issue and support it without refuting/refusing/pointing out faults in logic of the other point of view. Not to mention that it is natural for us to support our argument in such a way as it helps build a coherent response and fortify our position. We are taught to argue that way at school. But at the same time, we are demonstrating what some individuals might construct/misconstrue as "disrespect." Yet really, we are simply defending out point of view. The view of whether our statements are "disrespectful" or not is highly subjective and is dependent on the view of the individual from whom the view is originating. I also do not believe that making a "false assumption" is "disrespectful" either to a certain extent; it's a mistake, and don't we all do that? There's always misunderstandings - even mods misunderstand us at times. But to falsely accuse someone of something else - that's another matter. And I'm guilty of that too and would like to apologize to The Dragon. But it was the way in which we were brought up that we sided a particular way - not because of the "authority figure." In a way, I heard both sides of the argument, but neither provided the "full story" nor could they under the circumstances of the situation. I'm trying to word this as carefully as I can without offending anyone, but there will always be critics and disagreements. Often they arise simply out of a misunderstanding, which is a primary focus on sakura_st's thread. Without experiencing the situation first hand, there are inevitably gaps in our knowledge.

    All I can say is that I'll be more careful about what I assume next time and how I word my statements, but that's all I can do. Inevitably, as a member of these boards, I am obligated to respond to threads/arguments. Sorry, sakura_st (though judging from the frequency at which you visit the boards, you won't be seeing this thread).

    Sorry, but no boards can be perfect. But improvements can definitely be made. If you decide not to stick around I respect your decision. There's ultimately only so much that mods can do - it's up to the people coming in and posting to act in a more respectful manner. But if by taking sides, we are tacked for demonstrating disrespect, I don't believe that that is the right way to approach the situation.

    Looks like I'll be hanging around for the weekend or so - just to see the responses to my threads. And if any mod decides this thread should be closed/locked/deleted, I'd just like to say that I wouldn't like that much. But ultimately, it's your decision - I suppose that this topic is quite "controversial", which would make my thread and post quite "controversial" as well. If you deem that it should be closed, Ill trust that you have a better grasp on the situation and trust your judgement. Whatever you do, I'm sure that it is in the better interests of the forums. Then I guess I'll just have to go back to square one and assume that I made an "error in judgement". But I'll tell you one thing - this "essay" sure took me a long time to write (and probably a while to read). And that's a fact - not an opinion for once. Lol.

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    Yow, that's one long post, I mean, 2 long posts. You just couldn't leave without some more long posts, huh?
    Heh, I was on TheDragon's side on that argument, hell, Sarcast almost banned me, hehe.
    Laguna, could you post the gist of it in maybe a paragraph or 2?

  4. #4
    SomeUserGuy Guest

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    wow, nicely written. too bad i couldn't finish reading all of it, my eyes started to hurt.

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    I think he wanted to have enough to last for a few months. By the time Christmas comes I might be done reading it.

  6. #6
    SomeUserGuy Guest

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    lol, yea that'll suit me for a while. when i'm not studying for classes, i'll read that post.

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    Hmm - I think I'm trying to say that I disagree with sakura_st to a certain extent. For details, see my two extremely long posts (sorry about the double post but I went over the limit). I don't think that we should get tacked for demonstrating disrespect just because we pick one view or the other.

    On The Dragon's side, KnightofNachos? Well, it's good to hear that - sakura_st thought that we were ganging up on The Dragon. As an educated individual, I don't like swearing much, so naturally, I took the other side.

    Again, I'm sorry about the long posts, but there's little else I can do. I have to support my view pretty strongly as it's quite a controversial issue. Lol to both of you who responded.

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    I just counted all the lines of his first post. Counting blank lines, there are 143 lines in his post

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    Shut the hell up, god dammit! (hehe)

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    Who are you talking to?

  11. #11
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    Oops, I guess I really overdid it with that post. Nice to see some feedback though.

    Should be enough to last until Christmas.

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    Laguna, he'll understand it, heh. You know, Sakura has 69 posts and she's a chick, huh huh huh. (Immature joke)

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    He? Who's he?

    No lol to your immature joke. I don't think she comes here often anyways.

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    SomeUserGuy Guest

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    i call that a lame joke.

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    I'm not up to counting Laguna's second post tonight. I went to the State Fair and I'm distracted. I won a giant plastic hammer there and I'm too busy wacking things with it

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